Please Help Identify This Old Cartridge Case

[jtmckinney]

This was found on a ranch close to Big Bend National Park in Texas. There was an old Calvary Post there back in the early 1900"s so it could date back to then. As you can tell by the condition it has been laying on desert ground for many years.

Case head dimensions match 30.06 but case length is 2.610 inches making it too long to have been formed from 30.06 brass. Primer doesn't have a dent from being hit with a firing pin. Stamped into the case head are 4 characters 90 degrees apart L C 8 9. Measured from the head the first shoulder starts at 1.560 inches second shoulder starts at 1.950.

Anybody have any idea what it is or was used for.

Thanks in advance for all replies.
James

 

[243winxb]

308 win.

7.62 blanks?

 

[jtmckinney]

243winxb, Looks like you nailed it.

Thanks!
James

 

[FrankenMauser]

Yep, 7.62x51mm blank.
...from some time after 1968 or 1989 (the LC 68/89 on the case head is the year of manufacture - at Lake City).

 

[berettaprofessor]

This place amazes me sometimes.....the OP got an answer about a weird cartridge 12 minutes after posting.......Wow.

 

[Sevens]

Did...
You...
Know...?!
...that blanks such as these aren't used just for a "BANG" to excite people.

They used these blanks to fire grenades from the muzzle-end of a rifle with an attachment. The "grenade" looks like a bomb or a missile, it has fins on it. With the attachment fixed to the muzzle end of the rifle (much like you'd "attach" a bayonet), the missile-like grenade simply slides over the attachment and all the glorious blast & bang from the blank gives the grenade the juice to launch through the air and ruin someone's day.

My smallbore rifle coach back when I was in HS brought a Garand out with training dummy grenades and we got to shoot these things... all powered with blanks. You put the butt of the rifle in to the ground, hold the rifle at an angle and let 'er rip. Very cool.

There are many folks here on our site that know far more about these things than I ever could. But those blanks were used for that as much as anything, I would suppose.

 

[44 AMP]

7.62mm Nato blank

Concur.

Fired truckloads of these in M60 machine guns in the 1970s. Can be used to fire rifle grenades, but mostly as training ammo.

The long "nose" serves to allow feeding (like a bullet) in automatic/semi auto guns. A blank adaptor, fastens on the muzzle, and restricts the bore enough to provide the back pressure so the blanks cycle the action like regular ammo.

Very common, actually.

In some places, brass that lays out in the weather for 3 years and brass that's been there for 100 years look virtually the same.

 

[Uncle Buck]

Biggest mistake a military trainer can make "You guys are not going on pass until everyone is out of rounds". Camp Bullis in Texas must have thousands and thousands of unfired blanks buried there.
I kept digging up unfired rounds while digging hole.
M-60, M-16 during 1986. Wonder what else was buried there.

 

[FrankenMauser]

Biggest mistake a military trainer can make "You guys are not going on pass until everyone is out of rounds".

The Air Force weapons guys used to bring us their "left over" and "non-disposable*" 5.56x45mm ammo. Anything the trainees didn't fire on the line wasn't allowed to go back, but they usually didn't have time to let people waste it, either.

We stockpiled that ammo for the rare range day when we had access to a sister unit's M4A1s and their lone M16A3.


(*Declared unsafe for use, after the cans were opened. Which, due to conflicting regs, meant they couldn't fire it, couldn't pull it down, couldn't ship it, couldn't bury it, and couldn't burn it. ...which only left the option of making it someone else's problem.)

 

[jtmckinney]

Thanks for the identification and all the replies!

I looked at the head stamp again and think it was manuf in 1989. Rotating the case counter clockwise it reads L C 8 9.

Once again Thanks!
James

 

[lefteye]

at Lake City

Specifically, Lake City, Missouri just east of Independence just east of Kansas City.

 

[SIGSHR]

No rifle grenades when I joined the Army in 1967, they had been phased out as a Great Idea That Didn't Work.
Yes, turning in unused ammunition was a major faux pas, the excuse was always it implied you had too much to begin with and next time's allocation-and next year's budget-would be cut.

 

[Mike Irwin]

I'm pretty sure that that style of blank was adopted AFTER muzzle-launched grenades had been eliminated from the military's inventory.

It MAY have crossed paths with the likes of the M31 HEAT grenade, but I don't think that it did.

 

[Paul B.]

"I'm pretty sure that that style of blank was adopted AFTER muzzle-launched grenades had been eliminated from the military's inventory."

I think you're right. FWIW, I've seen 30-06 calibered Browning shoot 7.62 NATO ammo withut a burp. Brass of course was totally scrap after fireforming in the chamber.The guy had 4 7.62 rounds and then a 30-06 every 5th round.
I once screwed up royally when working with a Remington 660 in .308 shooting 180 gr. Winchster Power point ammo and 180 gr. Winchester 30-06 Power point ammo in a Remington M700. Boxes looked exctly alike and shot three of those .308s in the 30-06. I was shooting for a ten shot group and I got 1.25" for the ten rounds. Those .30s shot right into the group without and fuss or muss but the brass was once more, ruined.
Since that day I only have one box of ammo on the bench at a time.
I defintely do not ecommend the practice.
Paul B.

 

[Kimber84]

Found quite a few belts of these along the Gulf Coast after Katrina. Apparently the National Guard was armed with blanks???? Dunno, but it was quite an odd find.

 

[44 AMP]

Apparently the National Guard was armed with blanks????

yes, real soldiers get real bullets!

(for those of you with thin skins, this is the kind of inter-service joke you could hear on any army base. For those of you who are National Guard, I'll tell it again, reeaall slloooww....)

Seriously, losing a belt of blanks isn't much of a big deal, losing a belt of live ammo, and your Sgt is not going to be a happy camper...

The case in question is Cartridge 7.62mm NATO Blank M82
it is NOT a grenade firing cartridge.
Cartridge 7.62mm NATO Grenade, Rifle, M64 is for that.

The grenade launcher case uses a rosette crimp, and not the long "nose/neck" of the blank.

 

[jtmckinney]

Since it is a blank I was trying to figure out the reason for the long nose. Is it to minimize barrel erosion at the lands? I guess it would just mave any erosion down the barrel but I have always heard that the transition at the lands is very important for accuracy.

Anyway, just at thought.
James

 

[44 AMP]

The reason for the long nose is for feeding. These blanks are used in, primarily the m60 machingegun. They are probably also used in the M240 series guns, but I don't have personal knowledge of that.

The long nose essentially lets the round feed just like a regular round with a bullet.

Firing blanks, with the BFA (blank firing adaptor) in place the gun runs the same as it does firing regular ammo.

FYI, if the BFA comes off, the blank will launch it downrange with enough energy to wound or even kill at short range.

 

[Sevens]

...well, don't keep us WAITING for the next bit?!

What happens if you accidentally leave the BFA on when you switch to real, live ammo? Y'know, the stuff with a BULLET in it?!

 

[44 AMP]

the next bit, and a story...

What happens if you accidentally leave the BFA on when you switch to real, live ammo?

What happens then? You slap in the spare barrel and ROCK & ROLL!
When time permits, you take the first barrel to the small arms shop and have them check it over.

The BFA is a metal tube, with a small hole in it to bleed off the pressure, after it creates enough backpressure to cycle the action. This tube is held in position against the muzzle by a frame that clamps on to the front sight using a wingnut.

On a field exercise, my squad had the responsibility for an M60 position. Two men pulled duty in the hole, rotating every 4 hrs or so. After a week of this, the night before the exercise was scheduled to end, I got the midnight shift, and of course, that's when we were attacked.

While the agressors were tangled in our wire, my buddy and I engaged in a spirited whispered discussion as to whether or not we should shoot them. My buddy was in favor of just raising the alarm, because if we shot them, we'd have to clean the gun (blanks are notoriously filthy). I pointed out that we would have to clean the gun anyway, and we opened fire.

The gun was tripod mounted, and I was rapping off short bursts, with a good gunner's grip (one hand on the pistol grip, the other holding the feed cover closed). After about half a dozen bursts, there was a deafening noise, the sky lit up, and the gun kicked! Out in the wire a man screamed, and grabbed his leg.

One of them shouted "They got LIVE ROUNDS!"
I shouted back, "Damn strait, don't **** with us!"
The focus of the attack shifted and they gave our hole a wide berth.

I continued trying to fire the gun, but the action would only work manually. The blank adaptor had blown off.

The next 5 or 6 rounds (using the charging handle to cock the gun each time) only gave a pop and a small flash. (primer only) After that each shot was the normal sound and flash.

The next day, policing up the area, I carefully checked the fired blanks. One of them had the hole in the "nose" twice the size of all the others.

My best guess was that some bored troop took the powder out of several blanks, and crammed as much as he could into another.

The injured guy was taken to a med company, and I heard he would recover.

I have never seen live ammo fired with the BFA in place, but I expect something similar would happen, probably worse for the gun, and anyone unlucky enough to be hit.