Plastic guns

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Folks are in a panic over the printed guns. Surprisingly an analyst on CNN, said the risk is minimal as the current guns are trivial compared to standard guns. The commentator was worried that you can make an entire plastic AR!

Anyway, I want the great minds to interpret this tweet exchange:

http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...d-printed-guns-doesnt-seem-to-make-much-sense

What doesn't make sense?

 

[TailGator]

I don't get it either, Dr. M. The big concern I hear being voiced is that they don't have serial numbers. Isn't it already illegal to produce a firearm without a serial number? I am not up on the latest in the field of 3-D printers, but don't they use a fairly soft plastic? Personally, I don't want to be close enough to hold the beer of someone who fires a printed firearm. As to what doesn't make sense, beats me; a cryptic tweet from a man who is not much of a communicator does not enlighten me.

 

[K_Mac]

I am not a great mind, but I do get a little wood on the ball occasionally!

Trying to interpret President Trump is not easily done, even by Trump himself. My guess is he believes trying to sell printed guns to the public doesn't make sense based on cost and function.

As an aside, I think the Washington State Attorney General and Chuck Schumer are far greater threats to national security than printed weapons.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, I’d guess he’s a NYC billionaire real estate developer and has the typical firearms knowledge of such a creature.

If I want to make a cheap zip gun, I can do it with $15 worth of Home Depot parts instead of spending $1,800 on a 3D printer before software, polymer and training costs. And my zip gun will be more compact and I’ll have substantially less worry about it blowing up in my face. For that matter, I can carry all the parts straight through a metal detector and show them to the guy as I go through just as a bonus.

The president should be old enough to remember guys making zip guns from car antennas in NYC. I guess he didn’t run with that crowd then.

 

[Onward Allusion]

From the article...
“These downloadable guns are unregistered and very difficult to detect, even with metal detectors, and will be available to anyone regardless of age, mental health or criminal history. If the Trump Administration won’t keep us safe, we will," said Washington State Attorney General Bob Ferguson (D), who represents one of the eight states suing the Trump administration.

I didn't realize that we can actually DOWNLOAD a firearm?! Wow, who needs teleporters.

I really wonder how many people realize that the plans are for MILLING out 80% receivers and not make gun from a block of steel? Even the 3D printed plastic piece is just a single shot. Heck, THAT kind of "gun" can be made w/o any electronic technology.

 

[TXAZ]

Interpretation: 2 disparate individuals, each with significant and highly polarized audiences, are talking past each other for the sake of personal / party political gain.
The focus here was on the Liberator, not the metal sintered weapons. As such, some of the 1K+ comments were polarized and poorly thought out, to which I would note:

"Felons" printing their own gun is a somewhat comical thought as the cost of the printer and materials is way more than the cost of a back alley Saturday night special or a stolen gun. (Or a bar of soap cut and painted black)

The original 3D printed gun, the Defense Distributed "Liberator" is very clumsy at best. While accuracy at the muzzle is as good as any pistol. Accuracy a 5 yards was worst than any other pistol.

There already is a law that requires firearms not be X-Ray invisible.

I believe I read in the ATF regs (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that if you make a single gun for yourself, by yourself, you do not have to put a serial number on it.

The cost of a Jimenez or other super-cheep Saturday night pistol at a gun show or straw purchase is likely much easier for most felons to just outright buy.

And finally, to the 'what's next nuclear weapons' comment, there is clearly a hypocritical moment with the many democrats who failed to show outrage when their darlings of the 90's provided *ALL* of the essential design information required to build your own nuclear weapon, on the Internet, courtesy of Messers Clinton and Gore. That information is already out, long before the Liberator.

 

[T. O'Heir]

Who do you supposed those States are suing?
And you can't make a plastic barrel that'll work with the pressures generated by any cartridge.
Chuck Schumer has been one of the leaders of the U.S. anti-firearm legislators since he was first elected.

 

[WV_gunner]

WSAZ covered it and FOX today. Ignorance is everywhere. I noticed that they said they usually aren’t detectable with a metal detector while showing a video of a plastic AR. The next part was showing an all plastic gun, and it blowing apart. They are surprised people are making their own guns from scratch but it’s been done for centuries.

 

[WV_gunner]

And what’s this any different from CNC? People with a program can make a gun “untraceable”? Some guy in his basement with some machines can produce the same result. You can buy AK flats that aren’t a gun yet. Here’s a secret, no criminal cares if his gun is traceable. Those numbers mean squat usually unless it’s stolen and recovered. And that’s only if the gun was documented enough for the owner to prove it’s theirs. If someone can afford a 3D printer capable of making AR receivers but aren’t legally allowed to own a AR, then they afford to break more laws and illegally obtain an AR they didn’t spend countless hours making. For that matter, for the price of a good 3D printer and AR parts, they could start looking at buying cheap full autos from the black market. Which would have no ties to them and completely illegal but very doable. Obama’s Fast and Furious program even made it easier for some.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

And you can't make a plastic barrel that'll work with the pressures generated by any cartridge.

The Liberator uses an all plastic barrel that works with .380 ACP. Although for how many rounds seems to be a question. I’m guessing it has rifling printed into the barrel to get around being a Title II weapon.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

IIRC, it didn't last for many rounds. On CNN, the scroll for the story was "Downloading Death". One of their experts was screaming that this was a terrorist and criminals' dream for untraceable and undetectable weapons.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Terrorists using 3D printed Liberators would be a massive boon to security. Plastic .380 single shot pistols that are only good for a few rounds and are massively bulky? Sure, go to town boys.

Its just typical media panic-mongering on a subject they are ignorant about; but that sounds scary enough to sell lots of clicks.

 

[HiBC]

Admittedly,my experience with rapid prototyping was in the 1990's.I'm sure the processes and materials have evolved.
One way is price.Back then,a stereolithography machine was about $250,000.00. Not a hobby machine.
They were great for a lot of things,mostly having a solid part to see,touch,assemble. I was in new product development.

But these rapid prototype parts did not have the engineering properties of an injection molded part.They don't compare to nylon 6/6 or polycarbonate.

That said,in the 90's,the DTM process laser fused powdered metal parts which could then be sintered to a porous metal part,that could then be filled with copper.

In any case,if I have the skills it is lawful for me to make something like a Barrett 50 BMG sniper rifle,or a closed breech semi-auto clone of something like an UZI,Sten,or grease gun,or any other gun that is lawful under federal firearms laws. No open bolt,fixed firing pin type guns.

And no serial number is required,so long as I make just one prototype for my own use.I cannot manufacture any to sell.

The 3-D printing is just another tool/process that opens the door to those with computer skills versus machining skills.

We went through the "plastic terrorist gun " thing with the news media when the Glock came out.

If you really want to make folks nervous,bring back the Gyro-Jet. No chamber pressure.

If an innovative mind,like John Moses Browning,has 3-D printing capability,well,just imagine. Technology can advance,but a 3-d working model of a1911 would come apart.

IMO,if a criminal/terrorist wants to arm themselves to do harm,technology like the Sten gun has been around since WW2.

At least in the USA,we do not suffer many newsworthy events to home built Sten guns without serial numbers.

I don't see how 3-d printing represents a greater weapon mking threat than a hacksaw,drill press ,and a $100 Harbor Freight wire feed welder.

Media has to hype every fear for all its worth.

With no 3D printer,you can buy an 80 % lower that has no SN,and lawfully complete it for your own use.

You can also get good old blueprints for many firearms and obsolete parts. Rolling blocks,1911's,a Hawken,etc.

Its funny how far removed from reality so many folks are.

Where do people suppose every manufactured part comes from???

My career was working in new product R+D as a machinist/modelmaker/moldmaker.

My job was to be able to make anything an engineer could dream up,and the molds to make lots of them.

I've made satellite parts,MX missle parts,aircraft parts,submarine parts.

It starts with sawing off a chunk of stock,reading a drawng,and figuring out how the heck am I going to hold on to that thing.

After WW2,we had a whole lot of Rosie the Riveter folks who knew how to make all the tools of war.

Along with "Fear the government that fears your guns"

Think "Fear the government/media that fears your competence and creativity"

Its beyond what they can control.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/tag/homemade-firearms/

Gives a set of stories on homemade firearms in various countries using conventional materials.

 

[DaleA]

"Downloading Death!!!"

Good land, hyperbole much???

Confession: The exclamation points are on me.

Here's a link to one of the CNN stories:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/30/opinions/3d-printed-guns-opinion-alyssa-milano/index.html

 

[44 AMP]

And you can't make a plastic barrel that'll work with the pressures generated by any cartridge.

Oh, you absolutely can make a plastic barrel that will work with the pressure generated by some cartridges, and probably any cartridge. What you cannot do is make it the same size and durability (service life) as a steel barrel.

Depending on variables, it may need to be several times thicker than a metal barrel and the bore may only last a handful of shots but it can be done. its just not remotely practical.

I do wonder about the "fear" of a gun that can't be seen on x-rays...for two main reasons, first, even plastic is "seen" in x-rays, just as flesh is. It appears transparent, but it clearly can be seen. SO, if you have people who are actually LOOKING at the x-ray machine screen, they can see even a plastic gun. Whether or not the people recognize it is a different matter.

Second, anyone ever come up with ammunition that doesn't show up in the x-ray?? Or metal detector??? Not that I'm aware of. Even with plastic cases, the bullet is still the bullet, lead is kind of clearly seen in x-rays, and plastic bullets aren't very lethal compared to regular ones.

So, even if the gun gets through x-ray without detection (and that doesn't actually happen, its media BS) the AMMMO is detectable, and without ammo a even a plastic gun isn't very dangerous.

Terrorist weapon? ok sure, if you could 3d print an entire AK and its ammo, for less than the cost of real metal ones, on the black market, MAYBE...


OF course, better outlaw 3d-printed box cutters too!!

 

[jmr40]

In this country the firearms frame is the part with the serial number and with many designs is under very little stress when fired. Someone with a 3D printer could legally manufacture a plastic Glock or AR-15 frame and legally purchase all the other metal parts without going through a FFL. And have a gun just as reliable and durable as the original. I can see the potential for abuse.

This is new technology and I certainly haven't decided how I feel about it yet. But at this point I think both sides are over reacting.

 

[TXAZ]

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/tag/homemade-firearms/

Gives a set of stories on homemade firearms in various countries using conventional materials.

Thanks Glenn, I've seen a 'craftsman' make a good 1911 by hand in Pakistan in about a day. No major manufacturing equipment, just basic tools and less than $100.

But the picture below from your referenced 'homemade weapons' takes the cake for me (and looks like some entrepeneur made a quick $400 for turning in 4 "shotguns" in the bottom part of the picture.

and a closer shot of that fine craftsmanship:

 

[HiBC]

Probably a person could form a piece of pattern wax to the inside configuration of a receiver,and come up with a some form of thinwall barrel liner,then spend a few hours winding graphite fiber and epoxy resin around it.

Maybe the 3D printing tech has moved on,but in my experience the actual material these machines make parts out of has mediocre to poor qualities.

I doubt you get an AR lower that is as durable as carbon fiber reinforced nylon 6-6

I do recall systems that built parts with extruded filament,sort of like wire welding up a part in ABS plastic,but then we have to discuss the strength of different molecular bonds between polymer molecules,etc.

If I were designing firearms,heck yeah!! rapid prototype parts would be wonderful for working out a model.

To do that,I would have the databases for the parts in Pro-Engineer,or Solidworks,etc.

And then,bingo!! I can generate the cutter paths to CNC machine the parts in steel or aluminum.

Time may prove me wrong,but at this point,3D printed guns are like "Ice Bullets"

And,once again....So long as I am making a lawful firearm,not a submachine gun,

What we are arguing about is not some gun inferior to a Lorcin or a Raven pot metal Saturday Night Special,
We are discussing the Freedom to create,innovate,use our hands and minds.

A long time ago,they could have had the same discussion over the ability to make fire with flint and steel.

After all,there are terrible wild fires in California.

 

[kenny53]

I watched a few videos on 3D guns. One showed a guy with a single shot 22 long Gun. Don't know if it was rifled or not. Video said the barrel developed a crack after 14 rounds. Another video showed shooting 38's out of big, bulky, hand gun. One gun was made on an $1800 printer and $25 worth of plastic. I think it would be fun to make one. I would not depend on it to save my life. The anti gun folks hate to think citizens can make something that they can't control. But I think the genie is out of the bottle and they won't be able to get it back in.