Plants Rights
- Thread starter NAD
- Start date
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Sorry, NAD and others, I don't agree. I'm far from Politically Correct and I don't mind taking on tree huggers, bunny huggers, sheeple or others whose opinions cannot be supported by reasoned argument.
But when we label all vegetarians as unreasoned, we show the same intolerance that we despise in the Clinton/Brady crowd. This serves no useful purpose.
This response posted in my role as fellow Member, not as TFL Sponsor. Contrary opinion is more than welcome.
Rich
[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 12-10-98).]
But when we label all vegetarians as unreasoned, we show the same intolerance that we despise in the Clinton/Brady crowd. This serves no useful purpose.
This response posted in my role as fellow Member, not as TFL Sponsor. Contrary opinion is more than welcome.
Rich
[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 12-10-98).]
I tried a Garden Burger once... yeah it tasted pretty good. I liked it. If offered one again I would take it.
But out of good conscience, after eatin gthe Garden Burger, I stopped by a WENDIES and had a BIG BACON CLASSIC even though I wasn't that hungry. I had to give the nod to EQUAL TIME there.
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Kodiac
Kenetic Defense Institute
kodiac@hotbot.com
But out of good conscience, after eatin gthe Garden Burger, I stopped by a WENDIES and had a BIG BACON CLASSIC even though I wasn't that hungry. I had to give the nod to EQUAL TIME there.
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Kodiac
Kenetic Defense Institute
kodiac@hotbot.com
Rob Pincus
New member
I worked very closely with a fake vegetarian when I was in southern California. He was one of those no red meat guys who claimed to be a vegetarian, which I didn't understand. We agreed on one thing when it came to food:
Sushi.
Which reminds me, Sushi restaraunts seem to have the highest percentage of anti-gun people of all the types of restaraunts that I know of. Which makes them fun to go into and talk loudly about shooting, hunting and other things gunnish.
That said, I have a two friends that I can think of who are shooters and real vegetarians. Of course, they are from California. One of them is a very good clays shooter.
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-Essayons
Sushi.
Which reminds me, Sushi restaraunts seem to have the highest percentage of anti-gun people of all the types of restaraunts that I know of. Which makes them fun to go into and talk loudly about shooting, hunting and other things gunnish.
That said, I have a two friends that I can think of who are shooters and real vegetarians. Of course, they are from California. One of them is a very good clays shooter.
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-Essayons
I am probably what many here would label a "new age psycho-babble spouting geek". I do eat meat, but not daily. (If I could choose, Rob, I would eat sushi every day! 
) There are good folk who are mostly or wholly vegetarian. I am for doing what one feels to be right, as long as the rights of others are respected. Allowing game to starve to death, weakening the herd, is not respectful of the animal. Its spirit deserves to be honored by being valued enough to be hunted, instead of dying as roadkill and of disease induced by lack of fodder.
) There are good folk who are mostly or wholly vegetarian. I am for doing what one feels to be right, as long as the rights of others are respected. Allowing game to starve to death, weakening the herd, is not respectful of the animal. Its spirit deserves to be honored by being valued enough to be hunted, instead of dying as roadkill and of disease induced by lack of fodder.ShadedDude
New member
I'm not anti-vegger's or anything, but I have had two experences with people that are vegetarian that I can speak of...all my others have been in passing.
The first, was a vegan, meaning no milk/dairy/eggs/anything that came out of an animal. When I asked her *why* she was a vegan she gave the blondest answer of all...."I don't know...."
The second was a vegetarian my wife works with, who told us that we shouldnt eat meat. And got pissed that we didnt imidiatly fall to the ground cry'ing because we had eaten beef for lunch. Imagin if I had told her than I ate Bambi the day before.
So my point is, some (not all) of the vegetarians out there are just as bad as the people we think are seriously missled in the Clinton/Brady crowd.
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Mouse Assassins inc.
The first, was a vegan, meaning no milk/dairy/eggs/anything that came out of an animal. When I asked her *why* she was a vegan she gave the blondest answer of all...."I don't know...."
The second was a vegetarian my wife works with, who told us that we shouldnt eat meat. And got pissed that we didnt imidiatly fall to the ground cry'ing because we had eaten beef for lunch. Imagin if I had told her than I ate Bambi the day before.
So my point is, some (not all) of the vegetarians out there are just as bad as the people we think are seriously missled in the Clinton/Brady crowd.
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Mouse Assassins inc.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Nad-
If I gave offense, I apologize. Note that my post wasn't directed at you in particular. Just thought I'd share my own views on the issue.
Rich
If I gave offense, I apologize. Note that my post wasn't directed at you in particular. Just thought I'd share my own views on the issue.
Rich
What does this mean,plants with feelings?
The next time I cut alfalfa or feedhay I need to say I am sorry?
We were created in a way that we must eat.You and I should eat a balanced diet,veggies and meat.Thats how we are made.
Plants with feelings,Another bonehead group looking for MONEY.
Sincerely
A producer
The next time I cut alfalfa or feedhay I need to say I am sorry?
We were created in a way that we must eat.You and I should eat a balanced diet,veggies and meat.Thats how we are made.
Plants with feelings,Another bonehead group looking for MONEY.
Sincerely
A producer
As a veggie and fruit farmer I can tell you incontrovertibly that plants do have rights.
Broccoli steamed with garlic then sprinkled with chopped gorgonzola and basil has the right to be on my dinner plate.
Seriously, having post graduate degrees in biochem and molecular biology, I can say that all organisms have "feelings"...they all react in some way to stimulus.:
In solution, bacteria will swim away from a region treated with acid of sufficient concentration to impair them. Many trees have the ability to "sense" insect attacks on neighboring trees and then begin to produce toxic compounds (natural insecticides) in preparation for an attack on them.
The ability to "sense and or react" to stimuli is a quality of biology. As to whether this constitutes "pain" as we define it is unknown. Clinically, you have a choice:
spend your extremely short life feeling guilty about all the stimuli you cause and die from starvation; or accept the fact that God and biology knows best and have a nice rare porterhouse with garlic sauteed mushrooms, the above mentioned broccoli, a nice salad and a fine bottle of Cabernet in celebration of being able to sense and feel anything.
Broccoli steamed with garlic then sprinkled with chopped gorgonzola and basil has the right to be on my dinner plate.
Seriously, having post graduate degrees in biochem and molecular biology, I can say that all organisms have "feelings"...they all react in some way to stimulus.:
In solution, bacteria will swim away from a region treated with acid of sufficient concentration to impair them. Many trees have the ability to "sense" insect attacks on neighboring trees and then begin to produce toxic compounds (natural insecticides) in preparation for an attack on them.
The ability to "sense and or react" to stimuli is a quality of biology. As to whether this constitutes "pain" as we define it is unknown. Clinically, you have a choice:
spend your extremely short life feeling guilty about all the stimuli you cause and die from starvation; or accept the fact that God and biology knows best and have a nice rare porterhouse with garlic sauteed mushrooms, the above mentioned broccoli, a nice salad and a fine bottle of Cabernet in celebration of being able to sense and feel anything.
Rob Pincus
New member
Might I suggest a chocolate cream pie for dessert, followed by a nice glass of port and pleasant cigar?
I am of the opinion that without the ability to reason, mere reaction to stimuli isn't significant enough to warrant a concern on our part. I know some hunters who truly think that if they shoot a deer in the leg that deer will behave exactly as a small child would. Other hunters are under the impression that Deer do not regard pain with anything more complicated than what could be called "fear."
Example: If a human was shot in the finger with a 7mm Rem Magnum he would hop up and down, scream and yell, possibly faint ans go into shock. All of those reactions are psychological, none of them have to do with the physical realities of getting the tip of ones finger shot off. A deer on the other hand, would just run away and compensate by limping and licking the wound. Without the psychological reaction, it really wouldn't be that big a deal. I have heard repeatedly that deer and similar animals have little or no feeling from the shin down. I also regard them as having a "survival" drive that sorta cuts out the middle man when it comes to reactions. Humans have lost that black & white, survive or die, state of being somewhere along the evolutionary trail. Now we are blessed with the ability to commit suicide, abuse drugs, be lazy and worry about the "feelings" of our meals.
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-Essayons
I am of the opinion that without the ability to reason, mere reaction to stimuli isn't significant enough to warrant a concern on our part. I know some hunters who truly think that if they shoot a deer in the leg that deer will behave exactly as a small child would. Other hunters are under the impression that Deer do not regard pain with anything more complicated than what could be called "fear."
Example: If a human was shot in the finger with a 7mm Rem Magnum he would hop up and down, scream and yell, possibly faint ans go into shock. All of those reactions are psychological, none of them have to do with the physical realities of getting the tip of ones finger shot off. A deer on the other hand, would just run away and compensate by limping and licking the wound. Without the psychological reaction, it really wouldn't be that big a deal. I have heard repeatedly that deer and similar animals have little or no feeling from the shin down. I also regard them as having a "survival" drive that sorta cuts out the middle man when it comes to reactions. Humans have lost that black & white, survive or die, state of being somewhere along the evolutionary trail. Now we are blessed with the ability to commit suicide, abuse drugs, be lazy and worry about the "feelings" of our meals.
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-Essayons
DC, & et.al.
I agree with you, and furthermore, any objective and well-informed person would agree with you.
I would further offer that "(insert object du jour)-hugging" is a misinformed, misdirected, wasteful, emotional endeavor; as it does nothing to support the balanced conservation of the focus species in the face of human encroachment to habitat and dwindling resources.
I believe the only "moral responsibility" we as humans have to the other species is to ensure their functional integration into the evolving biosphere to preclude their outright extinction. Setting them aside in high maintenance, managed artifical environments will ensure their demise.
As far as the universal law of survival goes, I believe to the more adaptable go the future. So for likes of Homo, Ursa & Suidae, the battle cry is "Lets eat!" Viva le Omnivore!
I agree with you, and furthermore, any objective and well-informed person would agree with you.
I would further offer that "(insert object du jour)-hugging" is a misinformed, misdirected, wasteful, emotional endeavor; as it does nothing to support the balanced conservation of the focus species in the face of human encroachment to habitat and dwindling resources.
I believe the only "moral responsibility" we as humans have to the other species is to ensure their functional integration into the evolving biosphere to preclude their outright extinction. Setting them aside in high maintenance, managed artifical environments will ensure their demise.
As far as the universal law of survival goes, I believe to the more adaptable go the future. So for likes of Homo, Ursa & Suidae, the battle cry is "Lets eat!" Viva le Omnivore!
Rob Pincus
New member
I hope that does not include "Gun-hugging," because ..well..uh.. my friend...:O....
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-Essayons
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-Essayons
Rob Pincus
New member
gun-hugging is the most expedient way to move my .50 BMG around
Alas, I have but one source for my Monte Cristos, preferably #4. IMHO, most of the Cubanos I have tried have not been up to the expectation. I much rather enjoy the mello consistency of a Davidoff.
If you can find them, and want a little something different, try an El Sublimado.
Reminded of one time I told a "plants have feelings" lady that she was right and I thought it was a damn shame that Tobacco plants were singled out as being somehow better than other plants..... in that they are cremated.
[This message has been edited by Rob (edited 12-11-98).]
Alas, I have but one source for my Monte Cristos, preferably #4. IMHO, most of the Cubanos I have tried have not been up to the expectation. I much rather enjoy the mello consistency of a Davidoff.
If you can find them, and want a little something different, try an El Sublimado.
Reminded of one time I told a "plants have feelings" lady that she was right and I thought it was a damn shame that Tobacco plants were singled out as being somehow better than other plants..... in that they are cremated.
[This message has been edited by Rob (edited 12-11-98).]
NAD,
I've read study about what might be incorrectly surmised to be the result of feelings in plants, and this may possibly be the basis for the source of your information.
The report reflected that when the test plants (various species) were cut, that an inaudible (to humans) ultrasonic "scream" emanated from the plant. The report did not postulate a causative mechanism (at least as well as I recall) but upon reflection since plants don't possess vocal cords or any reasonably discernible facsimile, I suspect the following as the source of the sound:
When a plant is cut, it has fluid (water & nutrients) in the transport tubules of its "body." These tubules are very small in diameter, but when opened there is a change in the lumen pressure caused by the sudden exposure to the ambient pressure. This change in pressure allows a movement of the fluid in the tubules. When the fluid moves downward until it equilibrates with the capillary forces, it causes an intake of air to the tubules. This air movement in turn sets up a resonating air column in the tubules which emanates in the ultrasonic frequency region, not unlike a bunch of micro-sized dog whistles.
I'm sure DC can set us straight on this, should she deign to comment on it (vbg).
I've read study about what might be incorrectly surmised to be the result of feelings in plants, and this may possibly be the basis for the source of your information.
The report reflected that when the test plants (various species) were cut, that an inaudible (to humans) ultrasonic "scream" emanated from the plant. The report did not postulate a causative mechanism (at least as well as I recall) but upon reflection since plants don't possess vocal cords or any reasonably discernible facsimile, I suspect the following as the source of the sound:
When a plant is cut, it has fluid (water & nutrients) in the transport tubules of its "body." These tubules are very small in diameter, but when opened there is a change in the lumen pressure caused by the sudden exposure to the ambient pressure. This change in pressure allows a movement of the fluid in the tubules. When the fluid moves downward until it equilibrates with the capillary forces, it causes an intake of air to the tubules. This air movement in turn sets up a resonating air column in the tubules which emanates in the ultrasonic frequency region, not unlike a bunch of micro-sized dog whistles.
I'm sure DC can set us straight on this, should she deign to comment on it (vbg).
Mykl...
That sounds reasonable to me.
I've not read these "studies" done in the late 60's and early 70's. Thus my knowledge of them is hearsay (and my interest in them less than minimal ). I can tell you, they were not published in reputable peer-reviewed journals; the alleged experimental methodology was less than rigorous and I know of no repeats. I think the only published source of this data was in a pop culture book called "The Secret Life of Plants". Reaching back into the far and dark recesses of memory my understanding is that some guys hooked up some plants (no idea of Genus) with hi-power microphones and went at the plants with scissors. We don't even know which part of the plant (the detached or the main body) made this alleged sound...which would be necessary to determine the locale of sound source, and hence possible means of sound production.
So what does this mean in the grand scheme? Nothing, unless of course some bright person can make a plant "call" ( al la duck call) so I can whistle me up some avocados without having to pay $2.00 a piece
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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
That sounds reasonable to me
.I've not read these "studies" done in the late 60's and early 70's. Thus my knowledge of them is hearsay (and my interest in them less than minimal
). I can tell you, they were not published in reputable peer-reviewed journals; the alleged experimental methodology was less than rigorous and I know of no repeats. I think the only published source of this data was in a pop culture book called "The Secret Life of Plants". Reaching back into the far and dark recesses of memory my understanding is that some guys hooked up some plants (no idea of Genus) with hi-power microphones and went at the plants with scissors. We don't even know which part of the plant (the detached or the main body) made this alleged sound...which would be necessary to determine the locale of sound source, and hence possible means of sound production.So what does this mean in the grand scheme? Nothing, unless of course some bright person can make a plant "call" ( al la duck call) so I can whistle me up some avocados without having to pay $2.00 a piece
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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
Does this mean I have to dump my lawnmower in a deep lake before the plant police lock me up as a mass murderer? Or maybe this is the excuse I've been looking for to stop mowing my lawn. When it gets unkempt and the city come complaining I'll say that I'm saving millions of plant lives by not cutting them down in the prime of their lives .
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