Pistols under $700 to steer clear of?

[rodwhaincamo]

A friend has about $600-700 for a handgun. He wants a 1911 in 45 ACP as he fell in love after shooting mine. But I'm trying to get him to be a little more open-minded, both for the style and caliber. My AMT 1911 and his father's Intratec Tec-22 are the only handguns he's fired.
He's looking to me to help him make a good buy, yet I haven't kept up with much since the late 90's. He lives 4 hrs away now, and so it's hard to be much of a hands on help. And he doesn't know any knowledgeable people there.
This pistol will be for HD primarily. He plans on buying a shotgun as well. He has no intention of carrying it except for in the woods.
What brands/models should I have him pass over/consider and why?
Though I am no fan of DAO operation, I am very interested myself in the XD Compact (45 ACP). I like the short and extended magazines that it comes with, and 4" to me is about as perfect a size as can be had in a compact.

 

[Ozzieman]

If this is his first hand gun, I am not a big fan of the 1911 for a first gun. He may like it but can he shoot it.
That being said the last thing I would suggest for him would be a compact 1911 of any type. Light weight 45acp’s have a lot of recoil for people with little experience and since he is not going to carry it than the light weight would only be a negative.
Since he likes your, what I am guessing is a full framed AMT, then he should stay with a full framed 1911.
There are many 1911’s but not a lot for under 700$ new. But a gereat number of them used for that price range.
You can get a fair idea on prices at the following web site.
Some guns I would suggest in the price range you’re looking at.
Springfield or Rock Island, I have seen some S&W 1911’s used for under 800$ recently and the one that I fired last year I liked.
Taurus 1911’s can be a good choice if you get one without quality control problems.
I like the Dan Wesson I have handled but they will be above your price range.
For myself I have in the past and currently only own Colts and Kimber's. For me a 1911 is a work of art made by great craftsmen. This is I think best shown in the old Colt Gold Cup, the Colt Ace and the two Kimber’s I own.
I know that this doesn’t answer your question on which to steer clear of, but for me, if I don’t know the history or have handled several of a manufacture products, then these I would stay clear of.
I would tell your friend to save up a little more money and get the best gun for the money he has, that has the features he needs like,,,
Good quality adjustable sights, beaver tail grip safety and top quality manufacturing with who ever he chose to go with and stay away from the brands that make a cheep 1911 just because they are popular.


http://www.gunsamerica.com/Search.htm?T=Pistol

 

[HDTVSELLER]

Im with the last post 1911 may be a hard choice for first time but everybody learns differn't. I like both glock and xd but the xdm in 40 may be a good choice to look in to. The grip size can be changed to fit any hand almost but unless he goes with the new compact that just came out it is alittle longer then the standard xd.And with the right fitting grip most of the time you will fall inlove with the weapon no matter the caliber. But thats just my thoughts.

 

[BerettaBuckeye]

I don't know about what not to buy but I totally disagree about not steering him toward a 1911. My suggestion would be for him to buy a Springfield GI and have at it

 

[AcridSaint]

I agree with the Springer 1911, some of the best 1911's on the market for what you pay.

As for some other sort of firearm, I humbly suggest the FNP series weapons. The FNP-9 and FNP-40 are both very comfortable, straight shooting and soft recoiling guns and they have a changeable backstrap from straight to swelled, similar to changing out a 1911 mainspring housing, except that it's one screw and no disassembly. These guns come with three stainless hi-cap magazines (or 10rd California legal ones) are stainless and polymer construction (even the black ones are stainless that's coated) and are within his price range. Should be able to pick one up for about $500 and spend the extra $200 on ammo. FN service is fantastic and basically no questions asked.

If he likes the 45 caliber then they also have an FNP-45, but be aware that it's not the same grip frame as the 9/40 guns and to me is a bit uncomfortable. If he wants to get it in 45, make sure he has a 45 to put his hands on first.

 

[michael t]

How about a 4" 357 revolver he can load 38 or 357 simple to use and learn price in his range and has been used for home and woods for many a year.

 

[CPTMurdoc30]

Not sure why people say a 1911 is not for a first timers How many men in WWII had fired a 1911 before they got to basic or combat?

I love the 1911 and it was the first pistol I purchased for myself. I myself can't stand glocks just for the horrible ergonomics of the pistol. To me it was like trying to shoot a gun made out of a 2x4. the thing is they are rock solid performers. they will go bang when you need them too.

XD's are a far superior pistol for a polymer gun. I would have him look at an XD 40.

Don't discount CZ as well the 75b is a great cheap ultra reliable gun.

 

[Webleymkv]

Not sure why people say a 1911 is not for a first timers How many men in WWII had fired a 1911 before they got to basic or combat?

Anyone who was likely to be issued a 1911 got a decent amount of training on that particular pistol. Without knowing what type and level of training the person is question has gotten or will get, many of us are more prone to err on the side of caution and reccomend something simpler.

To the OP, just about any new from a reputable manufacturer like Colt, S&W, Ruger, Glock, Springfield, Walther, FN/Browning, CZ/Dan Wesson, Beretta/Stoeger, Kimber, or Para Ordinance will be a pretty safe bet. Also, don't disregard a good DA revolver. If he absolutely insists on a 1911, the Springfield Armory Mil-Spec would be a good choice at a reasonable price.

 

[Chris_B]

Anyone who was likely to be issued a 1911 got a decent amount of training on that particular pistol

While this is true, many more troops carried a pistol than were issued one. The US military in the '30s and '40s was not like it is today. If a soldier could scrounge up a pistol, he did. While I read many accounts of soldiers 'procuring' a 1911A1 I read none about a soldier getting in trouble for having an unauthorized handgun. I'm sure if one stole somebody's gun and it could be proven there was hell to pay

On topic, I disagree that the 1911 platform needs some type of hard to acquire skill to shoot. I think they are expensive handguns with expensive ammunition, and that's a good reason to not get one as a first pistol but that's got nothing to do with the 1911 being a 'bad' first centerfre pistol

For a new shooter, the shooter is not in love with a round, he likes the pistol. Let the guy buy what he wants, if it was a mistake, he can sell it

 

[Webleymkv]

While this is true, many more troops carried a pistol than were issued one. The US military in the '30s and '40s was not like it is today. If a soldier could scrounge up a pistol, he did. While I read many accounts of soldiers 'procuring' a 1911A1 I read none about a soldier getting in trouble for having an unauthorized handgun. I'm sure if one stole somebody's gun and it could be proven there was hell to pay

What you're forgetting is that just because a soldier managed to get ahold of a 1911, that does not necessarily mean that he was proficient or even competent with it. This is why the troops that were supposed to have one were given more extensive training with the 1911.

On topic, I disagree that the 1911 platform needs some type of hard to acquire skill to shoot. I think they are expensive handguns with expensive ammunition, and that's a good reason to not get one as a first pistol but that's got nothing to do with the 1911 being a 'bad' first centerfre pistol

While it doesn't require any hard to aquire skill, it does require a decent amount of familiarization and fairly regular practice. While all firearms ideally require this, a 1911 is less forgiving than many other platforms of a lack of familiarization and practice. The 1911 actually has one of the more complicated manual of arms insofar as handguns go. The shooter has to remember to maintain a proper grip in order to both avoid malfunctions and ensure that the grip safety is properly disengaged, the shooter must make manipulation of the thumb safety second nature, the shooter must be extra careful to maintain proper trigger control due to the relatively light and short trigger, and the shooter must ensure that the magazine is seated and a round is chambered properly. While none of these concerns are particularly difficult to address with adequate practice, we don't know how much, if at all, the individual in question will practice. While a 1911 is an extremely effective weapon in the hands of a shooter with adequate practice on that platform, it is ineffective and potentially dangerous in the hands of someone without adequate practice. While lack of practice with any firearm is a very bad thing, a DA revolver or DA Auto without a manual safety is a bit more forgiving than a 1911 is. If the idividual in question is willing to devote enough time and ammo into becoming proficient with a 1911 then he will be well armed indeed, but if he isn't he would be better served with another platform. The problem is that none of us, except possibly the OP, knows what the individual in question is willing to do.

For a new shooter, the shooter is not in love with a round, he likes the pistol. Let the guy buy what he wants, if it was a mistake, he can sell it

Again, if he's willing to expend the time and resources to become proficient with a 1911, more the power to him. But an unintentional discharge or malfunction during a self-defense situation is not easily remedied if he is not.

 

[Chris_B]

I'm not forgetting that possession doesn't equal proficiency. But what's so much harder to be proficient with? The terrible Condition 1 means he's playing guns in the woods unless he gets a cert from an instructor? I'd prefer to suggest caution and familiarization with the pistol's function rather than assume the man's a fool. There are people out there that can shoot themselves in the foot with an 11 lb pull SA revolver stashing it in their holster

 

[rodwhaincamo]

An AMT Hardballer was the second pistol I owned. I traded a Colt 380 Government for it, which I only had a few months. At first I was terrible with it, but got familiar real quick. Within 300 rds I could place fast fire shots inside of a 6" circle at 15 yds.
Not that I want to steer him away from a 1911/45 ACP. I just want him to be open-minded.
I'm not certain that I would include a Sigma or a Bersa. And, having a Taurus Tracker with a terrible fit, don't think I'd recommend them either. I'm not sure about Glock since he also is likely to be shooting +P's.
I've been telling him that any of the standard loadings are plenty. Since I will eventually be handloading him practice ammo, I can start him off there.
He's a restaurant mngr (60 hrs/wk) with a family. I'm afraid he won't practice enough. And since he's so far I won't be able to help him much. I feel that a DAO trigger is much harder to get the hang of, but the easiest to operate, especially under stress. As well as for his wife were she to use it. She might fire it a few times, but I seriously doubt she'd practice. But she may not want to have anything to do with it. Who knows...
I'm really trying to convince him to come here during a gunshow weekend and first see about rentals first, look through pawn shops, and finally the gunshow. He seems rather impatient.

 

[Webleymkv]

I'm not forgetting that possession doesn't equal proficiency. But what's so much harder to be proficient with?

Well, let's see right off the bat he's got to remember to disengage the thumb safety, be sure he's got a proper hold to disengage the grip safety, and be particularly careful of his trigger control due to a short, light trigger. None of those three things are as big a concern, if a concern at all, with a safteyless DA auto or a DA revolver.

I'd prefer to suggest caution and familiarization with the pistol's function rather than assume the man's a fool.

Who's ever suggested that he's a fool? I'm not assuming anything about him because I've never met him nor has he ever posted here. I've never even said that he shouldn't get a 1911, only that if he does he absolutely must be comitted to familiarization and practice even more than with another platform. He may very well practice religiously and be a crack shot, but he could just as easily load the gun, stick it in a sock drawer, and leave it there for decades, neither of us knows. While the latter scenario is an extremely bad idea with any firearm, people still do it and the 1911 is one of the least forgiving platforms for this sort of behavior.

I'm not trying to suggest that the 1911 is a bad or dangerous gun. All I'm saying is that it's not the best platform for everyone.

 

[.357SIG]

I really disagree with all this talk about the 1911 being too complicated for a newbie. It's not like a normal human being can't learn how to use a simple tool, which is exactly what a gun is (yes, it is simple when compared to other daily tasks, such as driving a motor vehicle!).

I guess we've just lost faith in a person's ability to learn anything beyond that of a caveman.

BTW, no offense to any particular poster, just reflecting on the advice, which I've seen hundreds of times on this and other boards.

 

[rodwhaincamo]

Without a doubt he will practice. To what extent, with the long work and then home life, I do not know.
He is an extremely intelligent person. I have faith that he will do well enough with whatever he chooses.
The RIA and low end Springield's are the only 1911's I'd suggest, though I have heard only good things about the Taurus.
I just want him to try other pistols before he runs across something and buys on impulse. He respects my opinion enough that I figure he'll make the drive and try my idea. I just haven't really kept up with handguns much since the late 90's, and there's a lot of new models/manufacturers, as well as a lot that are now long gone.

 

[SIGSHR]

I would recommend an M1911 for a newbie WITH a .22 Conversion Unit. Learn to shoot and practice with the conversion unit, when the transition to centerfire is made, the controls, the trigger, the feel of the gun are all familiar.

 

[Lost Sheep]

On difficulty of mastering the 1911

Wasn't the whole reason for the adoption of the .30 Carbine specifically because so many military who would have been issued a 1911, if they had the skill, simply could not master it?

Then there was the story (apocryphal, maybe, but I believe it) of the troop transport ship carrying a mixed bag of American and British during one of the World Wars (I read this story when I was a kid and can't remember which). The ship spotted a mine floating free. Since it was a hazard to navigation they decided to set it off. One of the Brits took his rifle and shot at it, unsuccessfully, missing several times. An American asked if he could have a go at it. The Brit unslung his Enfield and offered it, but the American declined, unholstered is 1911 and popped the mine with the first shot. Maybe they were closer to the mine by that time. Or maybe he was lucky or maybe he was just a good shot.

Three things I know for sure is that the pre-1960's accuracy competitions were invariably won by revolvers. After that, improvements in accuracy with semi-autos (1911s being preimminent among them as fighting guns) made great strides. I also know that Mil-Spec 1911s were made with generous clearances to make sure they were operable even in miserable conditions, mud, sand, dirt, blood, rain. Reliable operation was deemed more important than pinpoint accuracy and they succeeded on both counts. A lot of G.I. 1911s issued in WWII and Korea were "bin guns" assembled from huge bins of parts. Pick a frame, grab a slide, assemble with a barrel, link pin and one each of the other requisite small parts and do a function check. Usually no fitting was administered. The GIs who got these guns were universally unimpressed with their accuracy, but well pleased with their reliability and the effectiveness of the cartridge. Having been in the military, I believe every word of that assembly and issue process, particularly in the rush to war in early 1942.

Now, to get back on topic:

When I first started shooting, it was revolver all the way because 1) recovery of brass for reloading was more convenient and 2) All those parts moving around by themselves intimidated me. I didn't understand the operation. After studying on it, I am now perfectly fine with it. Knowledge is power. I now have almost as many semiautos as revolvers and the only reason I shoot revolvers more is that I hate digging around the range to find my brass.

Your friend likes the 1911 platform? Encourage him to widen his horizons and don't reject other platforms out of unfamiliarity, and then he can make a FULLY informed choice of the 1911. My blessings to him and to you.

Fond shooter of bottomfeeders; Randalls, Colts, AMT Hardballers and one Star PD and of wheelies; Dan Wesson, Ruger and one Colt Trooper III in 22, 357 44 and 454.

Lost Sheep

 

[EdInk]

I suggest he get one of the following:

Springfield XD
Kahr CW
S&W Revolver

 

[sserdlihc]

My first handgun was a Ruger P89. I had $350 to invest in a handgun at the time. If he has $600 to $700 to invest, there are alot of good choices. SA mil-spec, XDM 40 &9mm, Ruger's p series, to name a few.

 

[Webleymkv]

I really disagree with all this talk about the 1911 being too complicated for a newbie. It's not like a normal human being can't learn how to use a simple tool, which is exactly what a gun is (yes, it is simple when compared to other daily tasks, such as driving a motor vehicle!).

The thing is, what seems pretty simple and straightforward on a range while shooting at a piece of paper may seem extremely confusing when you think someone is trying to kill you. Can a 1911 be mastered? Of course it can but the shooter absolutely has to be willing to devote the time and resources to do it.