pillar bedded barrels?
- Thread starter jakec2789
- Start date
Longdayjake
New member
Pillars are simply metal tubes that surround the action screws. The idea is to have the action rest on the pillars rather than the stock. Because the stock can flex and bend with changes in humidity, temperature, etc. it is said that pillar bedding is important for keeping the same POI regardless of weather conditions.
There is also a method of finding the right "harmonics" of your barrel by putting pressure on the barrel at different points along its length. Maybe this is what is meant by a pillar barrel. Other than that I can't really help you.
There is also a method of finding the right "harmonics" of your barrel by putting pressure on the barrel at different points along its length. Maybe this is what is meant by a pillar barrel. Other than that I can't really help you.
LongRifles Inc.
New member
Pillars do one thing and one thing only.
They prevent guard screws from compressing the material that the stock is made from.
That's it.
Bedding is nothing more than providing a tension free environment for the barreled action that is inert to changes in ambient weather. Traditionally this is done by making a precision casting of the receiver using an epoxy.
Pillars in conjunction with bedding are considered by many (myself included) as taking this to the highest level.
A pressure pad in front of the receiver is intended to mitigate a lighter weight/construction action from flexing when a large/long barrel contour is used. Typically this takes the form of a casting made about 2 inches past the front side of the recoil lug. It works in most applications however if the shooter ever elects to change barrels the bedding will have to be done over again. Matching the OD of the barrel isn't enough because there are concentricity issues to be mindful of as well. I personally don't bed guns this way as I've never thought it required it. Bed the length of the action and do it properly and they shoot fine.
A long time ago there was a practice experimented with where two brass screws were installed up in the forend of a stock. These were installed on a 120 degree index. Using an Ohm meter, a guy would put one probe on the barrel and the other on the screw. When momentary contact was made the meter would show continuity and this would be the starting point for tuning. This was done primarily with smallbore guns used in a competitive environment.
The old M-14's built for NRA Service rifle competition get about 12-15lbs of preload built into the bedding out on the end of the barrel. It's to settle down all the hysteria created by the gas system while the bullet is still trying to get out of the muzzle.
There are a number of variations on all this, but this covers the gamut.
Here's what mine look like while in process and when completely finished:
They prevent guard screws from compressing the material that the stock is made from.
That's it.
Bedding is nothing more than providing a tension free environment for the barreled action that is inert to changes in ambient weather. Traditionally this is done by making a precision casting of the receiver using an epoxy.
Pillars in conjunction with bedding are considered by many (myself included) as taking this to the highest level.
A pressure pad in front of the receiver is intended to mitigate a lighter weight/construction action from flexing when a large/long barrel contour is used. Typically this takes the form of a casting made about 2 inches past the front side of the recoil lug. It works in most applications however if the shooter ever elects to change barrels the bedding will have to be done over again. Matching the OD of the barrel isn't enough because there are concentricity issues to be mindful of as well. I personally don't bed guns this way as I've never thought it required it. Bed the length of the action and do it properly and they shoot fine.
A long time ago there was a practice experimented with where two brass screws were installed up in the forend of a stock. These were installed on a 120 degree index. Using an Ohm meter, a guy would put one probe on the barrel and the other on the screw. When momentary contact was made the meter would show continuity and this would be the starting point for tuning. This was done primarily with smallbore guns used in a competitive environment.
The old M-14's built for NRA Service rifle competition get about 12-15lbs of preload built into the bedding out on the end of the barrel. It's to settle down all the hysteria created by the gas system while the bullet is still trying to get out of the muzzle.
There are a number of variations on all this, but this covers the gamut.
Here's what mine look like while in process and when completely finished:
Last edited:
LongRifle's comments on pillar bedding are pretty good. I'd like to add a few of my own including what spawned the birth of pillar bedding.
Benchresters have weight limits for their rifles. And they love the heaviest, shortest barrels they can shoot 'cause they're very stiff. To add more weight to the barrel meant something else had to loose weight. Lee Six, a benchrest shooter of high quality decided a fiberglass stock would do as it would be lighter than a stock made from a tree. So he made some.
They did well except the cores in them was a bit too soft to hold conventional epoxy bedding. Someone figured out that metal tubes glued into the fiberglass core would withstand the mild recoil the small cartridges they used. And they wouldn't compress enough to worry about compared to the synthetic stock's softer-than-wood cores. The barreled action would stay in place for the life of the barrel. This worked well enough indeed. Match results often stated the winner used a "pillar bedded fiberglass stock" and the rage was on. Everybody had to have pillar bedded receivers.
Meanwhile, folks using wood stocks in the high power match rifle discipline had conventionally bedded them in epoxy. .308 Win. cartridge accuracy at 300 and 600 yards with this system from good barrels and ammo equalled or exceeded what benchresters got from their pillar bedded 22 and 24 caliber cartridges. As pillar bedding was contagious, some high power competitors thought it was the best thing to do. Many tried it, darned few equalled what conventional epoxy bedding produced.
Done right, conventional bedding works fine. Just torque the stock screws to what gives best accuracy (Win. 70, for example, 60 inch-pounds front and back screws, middle one to about 40 inch-pounds). Torquing pillar bedded receivers still compresses the pillars, but only microscopic; steel and aluminum do compress.
That pad under the barrel is often debated as to its worth. Few, if any, benchrest or high power match rifles win matches with an inch or two of bedding under the barrel's chamber. All that does is transfer any fore end bending (from position, resting it on a bag atop a bench or something else) to the barrel and bends it. The more the epoxy's out from the receiver, the more the barrel will bend from upward/sidways fore end bending. When fiberglass stocks first appeared on service rifles, folks leaving their rifles in the sun learned the heat warped 'em and their zero's changed. Bolt action rifles with completely free floating barrels didn't have a problem; only the stock around the receiver warped from heat ant not enoug to be noticed.
Wood moves with temperature, but not as much as those early synthetics. They're probably better now, though. If under-chamber epoxy-padding ever does help accuracy, it's my opinion that it's helping something else that's not right with the barreled action's bedding. I tried it three times years ago; rifles shot more accurate the more of it I removed so I quit doing it.
Benchresters have weight limits for their rifles. And they love the heaviest, shortest barrels they can shoot 'cause they're very stiff. To add more weight to the barrel meant something else had to loose weight. Lee Six, a benchrest shooter of high quality decided a fiberglass stock would do as it would be lighter than a stock made from a tree. So he made some.
They did well except the cores in them was a bit too soft to hold conventional epoxy bedding. Someone figured out that metal tubes glued into the fiberglass core would withstand the mild recoil the small cartridges they used. And they wouldn't compress enough to worry about compared to the synthetic stock's softer-than-wood cores. The barreled action would stay in place for the life of the barrel. This worked well enough indeed. Match results often stated the winner used a "pillar bedded fiberglass stock" and the rage was on. Everybody had to have pillar bedded receivers.
Meanwhile, folks using wood stocks in the high power match rifle discipline had conventionally bedded them in epoxy. .308 Win. cartridge accuracy at 300 and 600 yards with this system from good barrels and ammo equalled or exceeded what benchresters got from their pillar bedded 22 and 24 caliber cartridges. As pillar bedding was contagious, some high power competitors thought it was the best thing to do. Many tried it, darned few equalled what conventional epoxy bedding produced.
Done right, conventional bedding works fine. Just torque the stock screws to what gives best accuracy (Win. 70, for example, 60 inch-pounds front and back screws, middle one to about 40 inch-pounds). Torquing pillar bedded receivers still compresses the pillars, but only microscopic; steel and aluminum do compress.
That pad under the barrel is often debated as to its worth. Few, if any, benchrest or high power match rifles win matches with an inch or two of bedding under the barrel's chamber. All that does is transfer any fore end bending (from position, resting it on a bag atop a bench or something else) to the barrel and bends it. The more the epoxy's out from the receiver, the more the barrel will bend from upward/sidways fore end bending. When fiberglass stocks first appeared on service rifles, folks leaving their rifles in the sun learned the heat warped 'em and their zero's changed. Bolt action rifles with completely free floating barrels didn't have a problem; only the stock around the receiver warped from heat ant not enoug to be noticed.
Wood moves with temperature, but not as much as those early synthetics. They're probably better now, though. If under-chamber epoxy-padding ever does help accuracy, it's my opinion that it's helping something else that's not right with the barreled action's bedding. I tried it three times years ago; rifles shot more accurate the more of it I removed so I quit doing it.
Swampghost
New member
Gauging what I've just read people just don't know their epoxies or polyurethanes. Both fly into space on a regular basis.
There is a company that I deal with but am declining to name them because I don't want to write out the disclaimer. Hint: They work with Ferrari and Lockheed.
There is something out there for your needs.
There is a company that I deal with but am declining to name them because I don't want to write out the disclaimer. Hint: They work with Ferrari and Lockheed.
There is something out there for your needs.
tINY mentions:
In one of Harold Vaughn's books on rifle actions, he listed the common box magazine receivers according to their stiffness or rigidity. Mechanical engineering 4th order formulas were used which are very accurate. My own tests just bending them with the same 40-pound weight at the same relative point agrees with his findings.
The Winchester 70 receivers' are near 3 times stiffer than Remington 700's for the long version and topped the list. Mauser 98's were a bit stiffer than the Remingtons because, like the Win. 70, their rails offer more resistance to bending in the vertical axis. Vertical's the axis they get bent the most with when the rifle's fired. One of the least stiff receivers is Ruger's 77.
I've heard that before about epoxy bedding M98 receivers. But not recently.
In one of Harold Vaughn's books on rifle actions, he listed the common box magazine receivers according to their stiffness or rigidity. Mechanical engineering 4th order formulas were used which are very accurate. My own tests just bending them with the same 40-pound weight at the same relative point agrees with his findings.
The Winchester 70 receivers' are near 3 times stiffer than Remington 700's for the long version and topped the list. Mauser 98's were a bit stiffer than the Remingtons because, like the Win. 70, their rails offer more resistance to bending in the vertical axis. Vertical's the axis they get bent the most with when the rifle's fired. One of the least stiff receivers is Ruger's 77.
fisherman66
New member
Jake, what kind of shooting do you want to do? There's sum great benchrest knowledge here and if that's what trips yer trigger you have a good starting place. If you are just starting into shooting and the goal is to have an accurate rifle capable of hunting out to say...300 yards, I would steer you in the direction of a good trigger, handloading, good scope and lots of practice. We are talking about fine tuning in this thread. That's great if you get yer gross tuning done correctly.
mapsjanhere
New member
While I have no idea what works or not on bedding, I just like to point out that fiber glass reinforced resins weigh 60% more than wood, and have 10 times the compressive strength.
You may well be right about the relative stiffnesses, Bart. The point is still the same: If your receiver isn't stiff enough, you need to bed a bit of the barrel.
Actually, bedding the whole barrel is a great idea in some ways. But, as people already pointed out, the forces on the forearm of the stock change a lot, so isolating them from the barrel is the better way to go in the real world.
As for the compression of fiberglass stocks: You have to understand how the stock is made. There is a thin layer of fiberglass over a foam core. You wouldn't need the pillars under the action if the stock was solid resin and glass. But that would take a long time to lay-up that many layers, so no-one really does it.
-tINY
Microgunner
New member
Off topic, but, I gotta say, Longrifles, Inc., that's a beautiful bedding job.
Tikirocker
New member
Speaking of Military Mausers ... and bedding of Military rifles in general; the Lee Enfield No4 Mk1 was traditionally bedded with firm points of contact at the front draws most importantly, these often shimmed with hard materials, the tops of the draws which sit in contact beneath the sear lugs with hard shims also. The area immediately surrounding the front trigger guard screw inside the fore-end, extending to the rear shelves by about 2".
The rear of the fore-end tip where it contacts the butt socket would also need to be gauged for symmetrical contact or else accuracy would be effected - if a gap was found it was often shimmed with paper and then varnished over. After this the barrel knox form, otherwise know as the barrel reinforce, would be shimmed for the full length of the knox itself and 1/3 in width. After this some Fullbore shooters would center bed the barrel at the middle band with 2" of cork or hard rubber bedding material and also cork pack the front and rear hand guards directly above the middle band.
Bedding a rifle, let alone the Enfield can be tricky and mysterious work when you are sticking to simpler and more traditional methods, but when it all comes together it's an absolute joy to see your work pay off. At Bisley in Surrey England ... the Lee Enfield still holds all the 1000yard records.
Tiki.
The rear of the fore-end tip where it contacts the butt socket would also need to be gauged for symmetrical contact or else accuracy would be effected - if a gap was found it was often shimmed with paper and then varnished over. After this the barrel knox form, otherwise know as the barrel reinforce, would be shimmed for the full length of the knox itself and 1/3 in width. After this some Fullbore shooters would center bed the barrel at the middle band with 2" of cork or hard rubber bedding material and also cork pack the front and rear hand guards directly above the middle band.
Bedding a rifle, let alone the Enfield can be tricky and mysterious work when you are sticking to simpler and more traditional methods, but when it all comes together it's an absolute joy to see your work pay off. At Bisley in Surrey England ... the Lee Enfield still holds all the 1000yard records.
Tiki.
tINY mentions:
Over half the rifles holding long range high power rifle records in synthetic/fiberglass stocks are conventionally bedded; no pillars whatsoever. The guy who stocked those barreled actions has never pillar bedded anything. His rifles probably have probably won more high power matches and set more records than any other. Including those he shot himself. In testing some of his non-pillar bedded rifles in wood stocks, the groups are smaller than benchrest records. Not too shabby with a Winchester Model 70 action properly trued and epoxy bedded.
Both McMillan fiberglass stocks I have are as hard as wood in the receiver area. In fact, a bit harder as measured by a small round steel ball pressed into them with 30 pounds of weight compared to the same ball and weight pressed into my walnut stocks receiver area. That ball went a bit further into the wood than the hard synthetic cored McMillan stocks.
Over half the rifles holding long range high power rifle records in synthetic/fiberglass stocks are conventionally bedded; no pillars whatsoever. The guy who stocked those barreled actions has never pillar bedded anything. His rifles probably have probably won more high power matches and set more records than any other. Including those he shot himself. In testing some of his non-pillar bedded rifles in wood stocks, the groups are smaller than benchrest records. Not too shabby with a Winchester Model 70 action properly trued and epoxy bedded.
LongRifles Inc.
New member
Thank you!
