Picking up a magazine on a hot range.

[Murdock]

Educate me. Why do some people make an issue of a shooter squatting to pick up a spent magazine at his feet when shooting on line in a class? Especially if the class is being run as a hot range?

If the shooter's weapon is holstered, or the muzzle is controlled and pointed downrange, and he or she is not going forward of the line, what's the concern?

 

[Osageshooter]

There is at your feet. Then there is just a little ahead of your feet. Then there is just a little bit more ahead of your feet. Then there is three feet ahead of your feet. It is a high reliability concept. If you don't allow it at all, you won't have the guy walking out and picking up the magazine that hit his knee on the way down and bounce out in front of the line.

 

[Frank Ettin]

If the drill is running, your gun may be holstered, but the guys on your left and the guys on your right have their guns out and are firing them. During a drill we want no extraneous movement on the line, for the reasons Osageshooter mentioned, and because unexpected things can happen, like a loss of balance. It's better to be safe in class.

They'll be a time after the drill is over and everyone has holstered when everyone can pick up magazines. Yours will still be there. It won't be going any place.

 

[demigod]

No instructor I've trained under has ever made this an issue.

 

[Frank Ettin]

No instructor I've trained under has ever made this an issue.

Funny, every instructor I've ever trained with has not wanted anyone to pick up magazines while on line during the time the drill is running. Magazines would get picked up only after the drill finished and everyone was holstered.

 

[thesheepdog]

My opinion:

Mark your mags so you can identify them and collect them after the drill.

Don't stoop down to pick up mags until the range is no longer hot.

 

[pax]

Educate me. Why do some people make an issue of a shooter squatting to pick up a spent magazine at his feet when shooting on line in a class? Especially if the class is being run as a hot range?

It's a lot easier to demo in person than to type out, but consider this: In a class, you're often standing only a couple of feet away from the guys on either side of you. And those guys might be shooting, holding their guns at low ready, reloading, or some variant of any of the above. When you bend down to pick up your magazine, if either of the guys on either side of you has his firearm pointed anywhere but directly on target, there's a very high chance that you'll place your noggin right in front of one of those close muzzles, either on your way down or on your way back up, without even realizing you've done so.

And that's quite apart from the fact that a surprising number of people (especially including old guys who've "been shooting longer than you've been alive") don't seem to have any inbuilt muzzle awareness, and swing their !$#%!#$ muzzles around to point at the guys next to them, their own kneecaps, AND the instructor behind them as they frantically dive for the magazine as if it might vanish into a hitherto-unnoticed black hole if they don't grab it before it strikes the ground.

Gravity works, most of the time, and it can be trusted to hold your magazine in place right where it landed until the instructor calls the line safe.

pax

 

[Archer-1911]

Let me answer that by asking you this why in the hell do you need to pick your magazine up right away? The instructor will give the entire class a period of time to collect/load magazines so why not just wait?

 

[Tom-C]

Demigod,

I agree with Fiddletown and Osageshooter. Every Instructor I have worked with insists on no one retriving magazines until the range is safe and all the firearms are holstered.

 

[Capt. Charlie]

If that hot range involved a defensive course, there's another reason not to pick up a mag.

Remember the Newhall Incident? Trooper James Pence, only 2 years out of the academy, attempted to pocket his revolver's empty brass during a reload attempt.

It seems that, during his time at the academy, CHP didn't want empty brass cluttering up their nice manicured lawn at the range, and had rookies pocket their empties. It got him killed at Newhall.

Habits folks... habits.

Semi autos and magazines, slightly different, but the same principle.

We were specifically discouraged from picking up mags primarily for that reason.

 

[R1145]

+1 to Capt. Charlie

It's a training thing. Train as you fight.

 

[geetarman]

Capt. Charlie,

Thanks for the added response. It makes a lot of sense.

Geetarman

 

[raimius]

Let's say you have a nicely marked firing line. Now, person A knows not to cross the line on a hot range. He picks up his mag, which just behind the line. Person B does much the same, but doesn't pay quite as much attention to where the firing line is...now we have range violations.

 

[demigod]

Demigod,

I agree with Fiddletown and Osageshooter. Every Instructor I have worked with insists on no one retriving magazines until the range is safe and all the firearms are holstered.

Gotcha! I misunderstood the question a little. I didn't get the part about the drill still running... i.e. bullets still flying. We always get permission to police up mags, etc. at the end of the drill.

 

[booker_t]

Good comments by all.

The concern I would have mostly is what is the person doing with the muzzle while he/she is leaning/squatting/kneeling to pick up the mag, even if it is right at their feet. It's a moment when the mind is concerned with something other than muzzle discipline, and in such close quarters, any slip could be fatal.

Also, the train as you fight concept applies 100%. Drop your empties and get them out of the way. If you drop a mag with some rounds left, it's gone, let it go. Get the next mag in the gun and make 'em count. If you're doing a tactical reload and you drop the partial, let it go and move on, it's gone. Stay in the moment and worry about After-Action Review when the time is right.

For marking mags: Get yourself a good oil-based paint marker in your favorite color (I like green). Hobby stores like AC Moore or Michael's carry them, a couple bucks each and they last quite a while. Put a dot or your first initial on there somewhere and there will be no confusion about which ones are your's.

 

[Rifleman 173]

If you train to waste extra moves, like picking up a magazine while shooting is on-going, it means that you are not concentrating on what is important like watching the enemy. A magazine should be secondary to your life and your life depends on you watching what is going on in front of you. Drop the magazine, move on and watch what is going on around you is important in that order. If you aren't shooting, you should be watching and moving or reloading while behind cover.

So why do we push watching the range over magazine recovery? Because (A.) is becomes a tactical strength for you to go straight through the course of fire and (B.) because it can be a safety issue that saves your life. Suppose the shooter suddenly slumps over with a heart attack or takes a richocet in the head. If you are alert and concentrating on the gunfire then when the shooter drops over you might be able to keep him from shooting another person by accident or even you. So there are basically two cautious reasons to wait and pick up magazines at the end of a course of fire.