You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Phase out date for percussion and cap and ball fireams ?
- Thread starter SIGSHR
- Start date
Model12Win
Moderator
1870s. Still used for years after, though, by poor people or folks that didn't want to upgrade. Heck, Rogers and Spencers were being used in the Spanish American IIRC.
Trum4n1208
New member
For your average person, I imagine cap & ball revolvers would be in common usage into the 1880's. Most people probably couldn't afford to get anything nicer than an old cap, and probably wouldn't need to get something better if they could afford to do so. Just my guess though.
prof marvel
New member
Copies of Colt's Percussion revolvers ( also known as "brevette colts" ) were still being produced in Belgium as late as 1920 or 1930 for sale in the Middle East and Africa. They were especially popular in Turkey.
One can only assume loose powder and caps were more common and easier to obtain than cartridges.
I can guarentee that it was easier on caravans and traders to stock and sell powder and caps and bar lead than to try to carry the plethora of different cartridges .
As an example, I knew an exchange student from Kenya back in 1974 who came to the BP shop and bought a .54 TC Hawken, several roundball molds, several Maxi molds, and a case of caps. He was taking them home where he could get plenty of BP but cartridges (even then) were difficult to get and very expensive. We were also given to understand that ML firearms were also essentially unregulated.
yhs
prof marvel
One can only assume loose powder and caps were more common and easier to obtain than cartridges.
I can guarentee that it was easier on caravans and traders to stock and sell powder and caps and bar lead than to try to carry the plethora of different cartridges .
As an example, I knew an exchange student from Kenya back in 1974 who came to the BP shop and bought a .54 TC Hawken, several roundball molds, several Maxi molds, and a case of caps. He was taking them home where he could get plenty of BP but cartridges (even then) were difficult to get and very expensive. We were also given to understand that ML firearms were also essentially unregulated.
yhs
prof marvel
"...black powder can be made from common ingredients..." A very unsafe thing to do though. Even the pros blow up their plants on a fairly regular basis.
Horace Smith & Daniel Wesson filed their patent for a revolver chambered for a self-contained metallic cartridge in 1856. Bored-through cylinders were invented around 1852 by a guy working for Sam Colt, who refused to accept it. The S&W Model 1 was a .22 and was introduced in 1857. The S&W patent expired in 1870 and everybody else jumped.
Horace Smith & Daniel Wesson filed their patent for a revolver chambered for a self-contained metallic cartridge in 1856. Bored-through cylinders were invented around 1852 by a guy working for Sam Colt, who refused to accept it. The S&W Model 1 was a .22 and was introduced in 1857. The S&W patent expired in 1870 and everybody else jumped.
And aren't much special at all...I also make my own caps with a mixture of pottasium chlorate and phosphorus and they work very well...Not to mention that black powder can be made from common ingredients. Lead can easily be molded into minis or round balls.
Thus the only thing that is "special" are the percussion caps themselves.
Sure Shot Mc Gee
New member
Way before the Civil War. Rifles & pistols both: Volcanic_Spencer_and Henry's all fired rim fire cartridges. As early as 1855~~ maybe even before? As all gun manufactures were infringing on one-another's patent/s in that era~ I do believe
The U.S. Army got the preponderance of the Colt 1873 Peacemakers during the 1870s. Once their orders were filled then the guns got into the civilian market. Any Peacemaker in civilian hands before 1875 was either a special order or stolen ("lost") by the trooper. Civil War guns were frequently converted to center or rimfire in the early 1870s.
deerslayer303
New member
deleted
Last edited:
It's been a while since I saw the movie Sgt York, but I seem to recall scenes of Alvin York using a black powder rifle (shortly before WWI). Ordinarily, I would dismiss any movie scene as being historically relevant however Alvin York himself was heavily involved in this movie (even to the point of demanding Gary Cooper as the actor as a condition of allowing the story to be filmed) and I can't imagine him allowing the showing of him using the wrong rifle type
aarondhgraham
New member
I do remember my grandfather telling me about hunting with a Cap & Ball rifle as a teenager,,,
He was borne in 1901.
Aarond
.
He was borne in 1901.
Aarond
.
bedbugbilly
New member
Colt was producing the 1851 Navy (C & B) up through 1873. One of their most popular selling revolvers and one has to remmed er that combustible cartridges were available for many many years afterwards as there was a market for them.
bamaranger
New member
York
Doyle is correct.........Alvin York and many of his folk and neighbors were still shooting and hunting with muzzleloading rifles, I would think likely both percussion and flintlock rifles, in the years leading up to York's service in WWI. Certainly this would be into the early 1900's.
York writes of the local shooting matches and use of the muzzleloading rifles in his autobiography: "Sgt York, his own life story and war diary". Pall Mall, TN is a very rural area, even to this day. Though I doubt a muzzleloader is the common hunting arm these days, it is not hard to realize that the rural South, 100 yrs ago, would still have been a very remote and simple lifestyle and devoid of a number of modern devices more common in urban and northern areas.
The state of TN has created Alvin York State Park, and very plain and simple site. Seems as if some of Yorks firearms were on display......but my memory fails me
Doyle is correct.........Alvin York and many of his folk and neighbors were still shooting and hunting with muzzleloading rifles, I would think likely both percussion and flintlock rifles, in the years leading up to York's service in WWI. Certainly this would be into the early 1900's.
York writes of the local shooting matches and use of the muzzleloading rifles in his autobiography: "Sgt York, his own life story and war diary". Pall Mall, TN is a very rural area, even to this day. Though I doubt a muzzleloader is the common hunting arm these days, it is not hard to realize that the rural South, 100 yrs ago, would still have been a very remote and simple lifestyle and devoid of a number of modern devices more common in urban and northern areas.
The state of TN has created Alvin York State Park, and very plain and simple site. Seems as if some of Yorks firearms were on display......but my memory fails me
From Walter M. Cline's book, "The Muzzle-Loading Rifle Then and Now," Mr. Cline stated,
"A remark was made by one of my mountaineer friends, as a party of us sat around the camp fire one night while on a hunting trip in the Cumberland Mountains, when the conversation turned to the old days, when we all used muzzle-loading rifles. This man, a true mountaineer, said that he "wished there had never been any other gun made except the muzzle-loading rifle, because in that case we would always have had plenty of game."
Also on that same page (p.16 in my copy) it was stated that, "Very few shots were thrown away by men who used the muzzle loading rifle. It was accurate, economical of ammunition, and deadly."
Still is, and though it certainly is a cartridge gun world we live in today as Americans, I don't believe the m.l. guns, flint or percussion, ever really went by the wayside. There just always seems to have been a constant little stream of a "Black Powder Creek" flowing right along, all along. I can only imagine in certain places in the Appalachian country, the m.l. guns are still used commonly. Nothing more than an opinion here.
Two books I've had for quite a few years now, might should be on most any traditional muzzleloading gun buff's shelf. They are; "The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle," by Ned Roberts, and Walter M. Clines book that I mentioned earlier. They contain stories and info you just can't find anywhere else...and again, that's just my opinion.
On July 4th, 1942, there was a "chunk gun" beef shoot held at Jimtown, Tennessee. Guess who won 1st place? "Sgt. Alvin C. York, of Pall Mall." He got the right hind quarter of the beef (Chapter 14, Ned's book). There must have been some close scores at that shoot, as it's written that, "The record shots were measured with fine dividers, family heirlooms and true antiques, in the hands of three judges well versed in all the fine points of 'greasing your chin' with a hard-won quarter o' beef." Alvin York was awarded 1st choice of the beef "After a lot of exacting work and due deliberation..."
"A remark was made by one of my mountaineer friends, as a party of us sat around the camp fire one night while on a hunting trip in the Cumberland Mountains, when the conversation turned to the old days, when we all used muzzle-loading rifles. This man, a true mountaineer, said that he "wished there had never been any other gun made except the muzzle-loading rifle, because in that case we would always have had plenty of game."
Also on that same page (p.16 in my copy) it was stated that, "Very few shots were thrown away by men who used the muzzle loading rifle. It was accurate, economical of ammunition, and deadly."
Still is, and though it certainly is a cartridge gun world we live in today as Americans, I don't believe the m.l. guns, flint or percussion, ever really went by the wayside. There just always seems to have been a constant little stream of a "Black Powder Creek" flowing right along, all along. I can only imagine in certain places in the Appalachian country, the m.l. guns are still used commonly. Nothing more than an opinion here.
Two books I've had for quite a few years now, might should be on most any traditional muzzleloading gun buff's shelf. They are; "The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle," by Ned Roberts, and Walter M. Clines book that I mentioned earlier. They contain stories and info you just can't find anywhere else...and again, that's just my opinion.
On July 4th, 1942, there was a "chunk gun" beef shoot held at Jimtown, Tennessee. Guess who won 1st place? "Sgt. Alvin C. York, of Pall Mall." He got the right hind quarter of the beef (Chapter 14, Ned's book). There must have been some close scores at that shoot, as it's written that, "The record shots were measured with fine dividers, family heirlooms and true antiques, in the hands of three judges well versed in all the fine points of 'greasing your chin' with a hard-won quarter o' beef." Alvin York was awarded 1st choice of the beef "After a lot of exacting work and due deliberation..."
Phil Sharpe's 1937 book "Complete Guide to Handloading, had a whole section on muzzleloading. First time I read it I learned that the precision shooters used a false muzzle to to start their bullets, and that the muzzleloaders had / have a national association, still active.
So, based on that cartridge guns were to the fore, but there was a powerful interest keeping the original smoke poles going......front runner of the BR crowd. Book is available for down load from:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=27114
So, based on that cartridge guns were to the fore, but there was a powerful interest keeping the original smoke poles going......front runner of the BR crowd. Book is available for down load from:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=27114