Personal experience with M9/Beretta 92 ?

[RON in PA]

Have any of you had personal experience with the M9/Beretta 92 when serving in the armed forces or as a LEO? Interested in reliability, any special maintenance requirements and for those with military experience:How were you ordered to carry?, ie. empty chamber or chambered with safety on/off.

This is prompted by the acquisition of a police trade-in this past weekend. My feeling, after one outing at the range, is that the best way to carry for the police and/or civilian is chambered with the safety off and the hammer on half cock to minimize DA trigger pull on first shot.

 

[wolf 1415]

I'm no LEO, but I'll share my experience anyway.

Get a trigger job from IDPA pistolero Ernest Langdon. You don't necessarily want a reduced spring, just a general smoothing. You may want to consider the D model spring if your agency allows it. This is the spring from a DAO Beretta and now comes stock on the elites.

I own a stainless 92, An Elite 1 and an Elite II. I shoot approx 500 rounds a week in practice and competition. I use break free on the rails and mpro7 to clean. Absolutely no malfunctions with factory ammo. EVER.

As far as carrying half cock, I have heard of LEO's doing this, primarily because it reduces the chance of the safety activating accidentally. Try the safety at half cock and decock and you'll see the difference. I wouldn't want to explain to a jury about carrying half cock for a better trigger, but that's just my opinion.

About shooting that first shot double action, practice practice, practice.

E-mail me if you want to get that trigger job.

 

[Steve in PA]

My primary duty carry is the 92FS. I have had this weapon for 10+ years and have never had a problem with it. I've posted this time and time again that it has chambered and fired every round that I have ever put into it. I do nothing special to it....actually it is as it came from the factory, with the exception of adding Hogue finger grove grips to it and an adjustable sight. No special springs or trigger jobs. I clean it as I do all my guns and use RemOil with teflon for lube....not dripping wet as some people think Berettas need to be...just "wet" enough to see the sheen on the slides and rails. I shoot thousands of reloads through this gun every year. Our issued duty ammo is currently the Winchester 115g Silvertip. I carry with the safety on...and have never had a problem with it. I like the position of the safety, I can tell in an instant with my thumb if the safety is on or off. Others seem to have a problem with that or don't like the position of the safety, that of course is personal preference. I've never had a problem or seen the need to change anything about the trigger...yes it is a little longer than some of the other pistols around...but you have to remember...it was designed that way!! My Beretta is like a second hand to me...fits just right, the 9mm is a great round given the right ammo (you'll find a ton of written material here on the 9mm v .40 v .45...but thats another thread ).

 

[Rob96]

Carried the M9 Beretta as a SP in the USAF. I had posted this on a similar question over at GT. I never suffered a failure of any kind. This was in both the Phillippines where the heat and humidity are extreme not to mention the salt air and sandy soil getting into it. Second assignment was at Minot AFB, never heard of any failures there with the extreme cold. Never noticed on any rust on them either. We didn't do anything special with them either, no special ludes or wonder greases. My only complaint is that I am not as accurate with them as I am with other pistols.

 

[9mmepiphany]

did extensive work with the 92 and 96 to decide which to get for a duty weapon. decided on the 96 because i already had a sig p226 which i'm attached to because of the times it has saved my bacon on the streets.

the beretta is outstanding, unbelievably reliable (just a light touch of breakfree on rails) eating everything i can lay my hands on (lead reloads, fmj surplus and jhp up to +p+), a very smooth DA trigger pull, possibly the best slide-mounted safe (spring assisted) to flick off and outstanding accurracy (my 96 is the most accurrate .40 i've shot...glock 22, sig 229/239)

on-duty, i carry my 96 (round in the chamber, please )with the safety-on and flick it off as i disengage the thumbstrap. first shot always DA and i shoot distinguished master.

off-duty, i usually carry safety-off because i normally carry guns without safeties (sig220/226)

 

[IamNOTaNUT]

While I do not carry my M-9 on duty, I will throw in my 2 cents anyway. My duty weapon is a Sig 226. My primary off duty gun is a 1911. So for me, when I carry my M-9, I carry it chamber loaded, safety off, hammer decocked. I accept a DA pull for the first round and SA afterwards. I do not use the safety because 1) it is unnecessary 2) My Sig does not use a safety and the 1911 safety operates in the opposite direction so I do not want to get in a counter-training sistuation. In other words, I do not want to forget which way the safety has to be manipulated under stress.

The whole argument about a DA and SA pull being a terrible combination is way overblown in my opinion. It all comes down to training. And if you can't find enough time to train to get comfortable with the DA/SA trigger, you probably don't spend enough time at the range to be effective with your gun.

I have no problem with those who choose to carry their DA pistol on safe, but for the reasons outlined above, I choose not to.

So. . . . Are you happy with your new acquisition? I love mine! It has been totally reliable with anything I have fed it to date, to include my reloads. A marvelous piece. I hope yours makes you just as happy.

 

[Russell92]

i'm not an LEO or in the military but i own 2 92 series Berettas a 92FS and a 92G Elite. if i were going to carry a 92FS i'd carry it with the safety off and the hammer lowered so the first shot will be DA. i prefer the G model 92's since i don't feel the need for a safety as long as i keep my finger outside the trigger guard and with the G model there's no chance of the safety being accidentally engauged. i don't practice much with my 92's in DA but of all DA pistols i've shot i shoot my 92FS the best. the DA pull is heavy but very smooth and it's not that hard for me to transition for DA to SA. i'm sure that with more practice i could shoot it very well in DA. it seems weird to me carrying it at half cock, i don't know why it just does.

 

[Ken Cook]

I was a Marine Armorer and submitted many QDRs (Quality Deficiency Report) on the M9 Beretta.
Problems noted were of course the infamous slide failures, (which I never actually saw) and some other minor problems.
The BIG problem as far as I'm concerned was a tendency for one of the locking lugs to break off of the breech lock and COMPLETELY lock up the pistol.
I'm talking total lockup, meaning that it's going to take a trained Armorer at least half an hour to get the pistol APART and 5 minutes to replace the breech lock. (and 2 hours to do the paperwork!) Beretta's response was that this was an "expected breakage" after 5,000 rounds and therefore met the requirements of the Milspec. (Needless to say, the term "Milspec" in an ad is NOT a selling point for me.)
That's all fine and well I suppose. Unless you happen to need that (approx) 5,000th round to keep someone from killing you.

I will probably take a little heat for this, but I do NOT consider the M9 or it's civilian counterpart an acceptable self defense pistol.

If you're FORCED by departmental decree to carry it, I'd strongly urge you to replace the breech block every 2000 rounds.
Expensive? It's cheaper than a funeral.

 

[Steve in PA]

I'll throw another .02 in here on the Beretta. I've been in the PA Army Natonal Guard for several years, A Co 2/103, we are an M1A1 tank outfit which means we have lots of M9s floating around. I said it once and I'll say it again, I have yet to see a broken slide, broken locking block even oour armorer hasn't seen one. And yes we abuse these M9s. I've posted before how come qualifying time whole companies would draw their M9s, but then only use a handful...maybe 12-20 to qualify numerous companies. Other than oiling them there were no problems. Do the locking blocks break...I guess so although I have never seen one. I've had the civilian 92FS for many years......and put thousands and thousands (I put 3 thousand rounds through it last year alone...plus shooting several other guns) of rounds through it. Name a pistol and anyone can tell you what "they" think is wrong with it......this goes for Glock, Sig....on down the line. I'll keep my Beretta.

 

[Echo23TC]

As one of the resident gun nuts in my National Guard Cav Troop (M1A1's - Hey, Steve!) I usually get tabbed with inspecting M9's at turn in on Qualification day. I have to admit, I'm not a trained armorer. But, I haven't found any problems with any of ours. Everyone in my unit qualifies on their own weapon, and cleans it. So we may not have had as many rounds fired per weapon.
Fortunately, I have not been in a situation where I've had to carry my M9 while on duty.

 

[Ken Cook]

Echo23,
Gun nut you may be, but it doesn't matter if you're a trained Armorer in this instance, because there is no visual cue that there's anything wrong with the breech lock until it breaks and locks your pistol up tighter than Ft. Knox.

Steve,
I hope you realize what a pointless thing it is to say, "I haven't seen it." when it comes to military ordnance. You don't HAVE to see it, you can read the paperwork.
Saying you haven't seen it is about the weakest argument I could think of in this circumstance. You WANNA see it?
Do a little homework! Check QDRs submitted to Tank/Ordnance Department, MCLB Albany Georgia between the periods of 1988 and 1992, you will find MY QDR (Complete with detailed official Navy 8X10 Glossies of the breakages from several angles) and many, many, more dealing with the same and other problems.
People may lie and BS in the forums, and you may THINK I'm doing the same, but I promise you I didn't falsify official documents 10 years ago for the sake of making the M9 look bad today.

BTW,
All QDRs I submitted were signed,

Kenneth L. Cook
USMC/2111

 

[CastleBravo]

As a "mere" M9 end user in the Army...

I found the M9s to be pretty hit and miss. The first one I shot was very accurate and reliable. The second and third ones had so-so accuracy and were not feed-reliable at all. Not qualifying "expert" because a properly cleaned and lubed M9 with no visible wear misfeeds NATO ball is not exactly an encouraging experience.

So many people with civilian-market Berettas crow about their ultra-reliable and utterly accurate 92-derivatives that I wonder if the Army got soaked.

Notice that Glocks, Sigs, HKs, BHPs and 1911s don't have major parts that are assumed to catastrophically FAIL and jam the pistol at a mere 5000 rounds. Hmmm.

C.B.

 

[Echo23TC]

Ken, I'm curious - how many instances of the locking block failing did you see? Did they all occur after the 5000th round, or were they randomly distributed? Did the breakage occur at roughly the same point on the block, at similar angles, etc? In your opinion, was there any way, short of replacing the locking block, to avoid this occurrence?
FWIW, I do not, nor will I, own an M9/92. I don't LIKE them. But, if that is all that's available if my unit is activated (don't even talk about M11's, I'm in the National Guard), that is what will be in hand if I need it. I'd just as soon it work all the time!

 

[.357SIG]

Beretta manual says not to carry the gun half-cocked. An impact on the hammer could damage it. (Ever hit or snagged your carry gun against something hard? I know I have.)

 

[J. Parker]

I cannot comment on the Beretta M9 because I never carried one or used one in the military. The thread did however address the Beretta mod 92 also so I'll comment on that portion. I am a Beretta enthusiast and have owned at one time or another probably a half dozen Beretta's since the late eighties. About three years ago I did purchase a "police trade-in" circa 1989 model with the "new" locking block and two factory hi-caps at a very reasonable price. A little holster wear and that was about it. It was a real nice pistol. If you're concerned about the "locking block" issue it's easy enough to get a new one. I've owned Centurion models, full size, DAO's and presently a conventional Centurion. I would venture to say I've put thousands of more rounds through Beretta's than probably 95% of all grunts, armorers, cops, feds, weekend warriors or whomever. FOR ME, they've worked every time, all the time, without a choke or hiccup of anykind. The slide has never come off and smacked me in the head. No cracks have ever developed that I'm aware of. Based on my personal experience with Beretta's these pistol's flat out WORK. J. Parker

 

[vanfunk]

I have an Italian police surplus (unissued) 92 SB that I am very fond of. It's accuracy is about mid-pack with other similarly priced 9mm's. The trigger in both modes is far, far superior to other, more recently manufactured 92's. I would have no doubts about it's ability to hold up its end of the bargain in a home defense scenario. Combat? Couldn't say, and never want to find out. The high polished blue is much too pretty to come in contact with anything less kind than a silicone cloth. Anyway, just a datapoint.

BTW, wasn't the venerable 1911 designated with a service life of only 6000 rounds?
vanfunk

 

[Steve in PA]

Its apple and oranges time. Do you really think any gun manufacturer would produce a pistol that would need to have a part changed at 5,000 rounds? Some people on here could do that on a weekend. Like I said I've been in the military for several years...active duty Marines when the issued weapon was the 1911's.....1979-1983, 0351 E Co 2/6 Camp LeJeune NC.....and recently in the Guard. My buddy in the Corps was an armorer.......our guard unit armorer is also a sheriff in my county so I know a little about how armories work. Go to GlockTalk and they'll tell you all bout the problems with other guns...go to the Beretta site, the Sig, HK forums.......you'll get all the same responses...my pistol is better than your pistol. Glocks go kaboom and choke on half the ammo they are fed, the Colts need alot of work to stay functional...on down the line. Yes there are exceptions (my pistol brand XYZ has never failed). So whats the bottom line....and current production pistol will suite you just fine...find the one that you shoot the best and don't worry about. I own a Beretta 92FS, S&W 6906, Sig P220, a Walther PPK/S, several Rugers......all have worked flawlessly

 

[GSB]

Ken, the problem with the locking block, and aforementioned slide failures, were definite problems with early 92's. My understanding is that the Elite series has addressed these issues with a heavier slide and redesigned locking block. They don't run cheap, but for those who want a 92 and can afford the extra money in exchange for peace of mind, it's probably a worthwhile investment.

 

[Ken Cook]

Echo23,
The only Armory I ever worked in that had the M9 was in an overseas Marine Corps Security Force Company. Everything else was M1911A1.
I was NCOIC in that Armory and of 30 M9s in inventory, 6 of them suffered locking block failure. A ratio of 1 in 5!
The failures were so identical, (seperation of the port side locking lug) that you could ALMOST interchange the broken lug from one pistol and the breech block from another.
Carbon copy failures.

In my QDR, (wish I could find my copy, yes I kept copies.) I stated that the reason for this was DESIGN FLAW.
Surprisingly, the cause of the breakage is not within the FIRING portion of the Cycle of Operations, but rather in the LOCKING portion.
As the pistol returns to battery, ALL the energy of the forward moving slide assembly is transfered to one area on the left/portside locking lug. (I don't know why that side, but I never EVER saw a breakage on the RIGHT side.) After repeated impact, eventually, the lug cracks off like an iceberg calving off of a glacier. BAM. From appearing perfectly functional to total part failure in ONE pull of the trigger.
Interestingly, the QDR was forwarded to Beretta and they did NOT contest my assertion that it was a design flaw.
They just took the attitude, "Hey, you can bust 5000 rounds before it happens, what's your beef?"

Steve in PA...
"Do you really think any gun manufacturer would produce a pistol that would need to have a part changed at 5,000 rounds?"
I don't think so, I KNOW so.

I'm also not holding one pistol up over another saying
"1911 good" "Beretta bad" although I DO believe that statement is true. Buy a Glock! (I did!) Buy a Sig, buy anything you like but if I am aware of a problem with that pistol that may cost you your life, I will make my BEST effort to inform you of it. Whether you choose to act on what I tell you is up to you and is no longer my problem. If nothing happens, great! If there IS a failure however, at least I won't lose sleep wishing I'd told you because I hadn't.

GSB
Welcome to TFL!

Everyone...
I have absolutely NO Armory experience with the civilian models and I do not in ANY way mean to imply otherwise. You'll notice that I do not refer at any time to 92s, only M9s.
However, the acorn doesn't often fall too far from the tree does it?

 

[RON in PA]

Gentlemen, thanks for all the replies! Very interesting range of experiences which is what I had hoped for, esp. in regard to military usage. The weapon is after all, what our men and women in the armed services depend on and if there are problems the tax payers ought to know.

Actually, I acquired the pistol to add to my collection and will use it for range work only and not to carry. My comments on carrying with safety off and on half-cock were based on a one-time, 100 round session at the range.

One question was not addressed, so let me ask it again: For those with military experience were you ordered to carry with a chambered round and gun on safe or in condition 3,ie, with an empty chamber?

One more thing, re; the locking block controversy, I note that my 92FS has the second generation locking block with the radiused sides. Beretta,s way of saying that products can be improved. Supposedly good for 17,000 to 22,000 rounds.