Penetration; a different perspective.

[MEDDAC19]

There has been some discussions involving penetration the past week or so, and I thought that looking at it from a slightly different point of view may make some people see things a little bit differently.

A bullet that penetrates 23" would go through a BG that has a chest or waist size of 70". That is a very large individual if you ask me.

The 12-18" penetration standard cited so often, will go through someone 37" and 56" respectively. If I am getting 16" of penetration I should theoretically go half way through a person that has a girth of 100". I am satisfied with that type of performance from my HP rounds.

The most important thing when involved in a self defense shot is placement. Even if you are using a 50 BMG you will get inadequate penetration with a miss.

 

[Tom2]

Well that is gelatin penetration. No bones voids muscles leather jackets etc. That would be useable data when the jello men come to take over the planet, but I would prefer to combine that penetration data with real world data to get a better handle on the effectiveness. Only sometimes real world data is hard or impossible to get, so the jello is at least comparative between different ammo if not absolute in real world terms. Hard to predict what will happen there. I would not use that data to estimate the size of a real world opponent, as you can see you came out with ridiculous giants. If one of those HP bullets you mention did not go fully thru a skinny guy and come out the other side, what would you chalk it up to?

 

[JohnKSa]

I am satisfied with that type of performance from my HP rounds.

So is the FBI.

BTW, their quoted penetration standards for LE handgun ammunition are "at least 12 inches" and "up to 18 inches". And yes, that's gelatin penetration.

Then again, what does the best funded law enforcement agency in the world know?

 

[Tokamak]

Other considerations.

You have to consider bone, clothing, angle of attack.

For example, what if the guy is aiming at you and your shot hits his arm and has to travel down it before it enters his body and then has to hit a vital organ? You might be talking 30 or 40 inches.

Suppose the guy falls down and you hit him low abdomen and want to pierce his heart? Your bullet is going to have to travel far up the body before that happens.

As you know, not all shots are going to be with the guy facing you, hands at his side, waiting to get shot.

 

[JohnKSa]

As you know, not all shots are going to be with the guy facing you, hands at his side, waiting to get shot.

Well, I know that, but maybe the FBI doesn't...

 

[Tom2]

Well I am sure the gov't used gelatin for their initial testing and comparison, as it will reveal the differences between different loads, but their specifications are also based on some real world results. I would think they still track real world results and reports and if something does not seem to be working correctly with a given load, they would reevaluate it in the lab some more. People are really unlike square boxes of jello and like the man said, depends on where you hit them. And then jello does not drive cars so that also adds barrier penetration and other complications for a LE type application as compared to the civilian street defense scenario. So I would not feel bad about adopting some ammo that meets their criteria, although there is plenty of other good ammo out there. Some might not be any good for shooting thru a Buick but for close up defense it would work fine. I just don't get the conclusions that the poster drew from the data.

 

[FS2K]

It comes down to compromise.

But first:

For example, what if the guy is aiming at you and your shot hits his arm and has to travel down it before it enters his body and then has to hit a vital organ? You might be talking 30 or 40 inches.

Suppose the guy falls down and you hit him low abdomen and want to pierce his heart? Your bullet is going to have to travel far up the body before that happens.

Good question Tomahawk! None of us here can hit what we shoot at every single time, especially under stress, however the 2 shots you described can be and often times are lethal. I know what you're thinking..."In the Arm?!?" Yes, the Arm. Everyone has a major artery in their arms and if it's severed it won't be a good as a heart shot, but the results will be very very close; massive bleedout in a matter of moments and the onslaught of Hemoragic shock. Same goes for the legs and groin.
And then of course you have the "gut shot". Your liver & stomach are considered vital organs too, and you will get the stoppage you desire.

Gelatine tests are just a gauge to measure penetrative performance. You guys are right, there are other factors in the 'real world' to consider like clothes, bone etc. I think you may be underestimating the destructive capabilities of bullets however. Bullets, especially those that are fired from close range can easily penetrate clothing and smash through bone quite easily. Bone fragments can act like shrapnel and reek havoc all by itself.

 

[TheWanderer]

You mean the jello men have not arrived yet?


I need to get a thick leather coat, come to think of it.

 

[FS2K]

Yup, lined with some phone books...

and several layers of Kevlar for good measure.

 

[cheygriz]

Ever heard of mixing apples and oranges?????

Military/LE folks may need to penetrate cardoors, running perps, etc.

Civilians, carrying a gun for self defense are not supposed to engage in running vehicular gun battles. If you do, the police are going to be a far bigger problem to you than the BG.

Police get paid to go looking for trouble. You don't! If you do not make a reasonable attempt to avoid trouble, you're likely to be prosecuted.

When you're being mugged, at hand to hand range, face to face, 6-8 inches of penetration will do it for you every time! You're not going to be shooting at a guy standing sideways to you and running, or a guy behind a barricade, or in a vehicle. It will be up close and personal.

When we discuss penetration, let's keep in perspective WHO we're dealing with.

 

[Smokin Joe]

A shot that enters the foot going up into the brain would be a whole 6 feet of penetration.. WOW.

 

[MEDDAC19]

cheygriz

I'm glad to see someone got my point. I thought taking the penetration discussion to the extremes that I did, would make folks realize that 12"-18" will be plenty of penetration in the majority of self defense scenarios.

You are not shooting through barriers, or at weird angles in most SD situations. The average assailant's chest is no wider than 16"-18" at the armpits and no thicker front to back than 12"-14". He or she will most likely be bad breath close and facing you, or at a quartering angle, presenting a torso shot that will quite probably result in a through and through shot.

If they are using cover, that needs to be penetrated, or have fallen down, you are probably getting away from the self defense continuum. If I have had the "bad luck" of sending a HP from his hand through his wrist and into his arm I have succeeded in shooting the gun out of his hand and should be in control of the situation.

Major bones hit with todays premium bullets at "point blank range" will only add their shrapnel effects to the wound track.

Smokin if you shoot him in his foot and it enters his brain, he's one of those that need to see a brain surgeon if he stepped on a rusty nail!

 

[OBIWAN]

"Gelatine tests are just a gauge to measure penetrative performance"

Actually they look at penetration and expansion and they include 4 layers of denim to look at how the bullet performs after passing through clothing

And yes...the correlate the results with real world shooting

Bullets that penetrate less than 12" in Ordinance gelatin have tended to do poorly on the street

"You are not shooting through barriers, or at weird angles in most SD situations"

Got any data to support that statement?

Real life is very different from either the square range or the old west

The bad guys do not always stand facingyou at 21 feet in good light (high noon)

If your opponent is using a classic weaver stance you will quite probably be shooting through his arm

There is a lot of data that shows how often shots will go through the hands because of the tendency to focus on the weapon

 

[FS2K]

Meddac19

As the heading of your post states: you do have a different perspective. I agree with allot of what you had to say, however, to assume that you will not encounter things like barriers and/or cover obstructing a clear line to your adversary is, in my mind, irresponsible. I can't help it...I was a Boyscout when I was a kid, and the whole "Be Prepared" motto has stuck with me I guess. I'm not saying that you or anyone else should add IPSC style training to your training scenerio everytime you shoot your gun, but being familiar how to navigate your shots past or through light cover to end an engaugement is an added bonus to anyones resume'. Just because things may not happen "In most situations" doesn't mean it can't happen to you.

Say you stop at a drive up ATM to grab some cash after hours and as you do a car pulls up quickly behind you, headlights facing the ATM. Before you know it the passenger door flies open and the occupant in the passenger seat exits and takes up a defensive position behind the open car door with a handgun pointed right at you. You have absolutely NO cover. You and the area around you is totally illuminated by the cars headlights as the passenger yells at you to drop to your knees facing away from the car...

I bet you'd be wishing you had some practice with dealing with shooting at concealed targets then now wouldn't you? I would. What's my option? To be shot in the back and robbed?

That is not an unrealistic scenerio. It could happen to you the next time you're at the ATM. Not only are you having to deal with the cover/concealment
of your potential assailent, in order to give yourself the best possible chance for survival you may find yourself having to shoot at non conventional angles as well. The real world is full of such possibilities, and being the most prepared as possible to handle such a threat will go far in keeping you and your loved ones safe from harms way.

 

[Socrates]

Often much neglected is the bullet catcher on the other side of your target. Skin requires velocity equal to penetration of about 4-6" of tissue/gello, depending upon who you read.

If you take a good look at most of the gello tests, the bullet cavity is created in the first 5-6", then the bullet penetrates relatively slowly, the next 6". The wonderful thing about skin is, it absorbs a lot of energy, and, a bullet that penetrates 18" of gello, would go 12" through bad guy, and likely be caught in the skin on the far side, or, leave with too little energy to do much damage.

That said, the thought of shootin through arms, and, possible having the bullet enter and exit an arm, gives me a bit o worry. If the bullet goes through the arm, most arms being 4-6",it's likely to hit bone, then, have to exit the arm, and reenter target. If you take the arm, plus lets say 6" of gello energy to exit skin, you have equal to 12" of gello in just getting through the arm, and exiting the skin on the arm. The other concern is skin can contain bullets, forcing them to run down inside the skin, without exiting, taking the bullet off path. This is much more common in animals with 1" thick skin, like elephant and cape buffalo, but, it could occur with a human, depending upon caliber.
It might be possible for the arm to defect the bullet towards the nonvital shoulder area, and, completely absorb a bullets 12" gello penetration in an arm, and never have the bullet get to it's intended target.

Many shots on cape buffalo, from rifles, have been deflected down the skin, between their ribs, and the skin, and, have the bullet go near 5 feet, or more, down the inside of the skin. All these shots do is REALLY piss off the
buffalo, get it's adrenal gland in gear, and, now you have a
tank that will often take huge amounts of lead, even in the right spots, and keep coming.

S

 

[markj]

Even if you are using a 50 BMG you will get inadequate penetration with a miss.

Do they make HP for this weapon? if so I wouldnt use it.

A bullet that penetrates 23" would go through a BG that has a chest or waist size of 70". That is a very large individual if you ask me.

I ask again, do you load up "light" so the ones that miss the BG dont hurt anyone? I want penetration. Deep penetration. So I dont use HPs and wont. Ever. Use what you wish, I will use what I wish.

What about solid lead? or JRN?

I also dont give a thought about the FBI and any test they have done. I have however shot and killed several large animals, I know what works for me.

 

[Smokin Joe]

I just purchased a bunch of heavy flat nose jacketed.

.38 158 and 9mm 147 ,

I like penetration.

about

Actually they look at penetration and expansion and they include 4 layers of denim to look at how the bullet performs after passing through clothing

That is out dated. Nowadays demin is worn over the leg, who wears denim as a shirt or a jacket anymore ? that is SO out. unless you a cowboy, but after the movie "broke back mountain " came out, who admits to being a cowboy anymore ?

 

[JohnKSa]

Some of you guys should send your thoughts to the FBI. I'm sure that the best funded LE organization in the country, possibly the world, could use some pointers on what is adequate penetration in real world shootings and what isn't.

On a more serious note, does anyone else realize that not only does the FBI quote a minimum penetration depth but also a MAXIMUM penetration depth?

 

[Socrates]

Don't be shy JOHN. Feel free to post your basis for the max, and, link to the document you got it from. We wait with baited breath...

S

 

[MEDDAC19]

Do they make HP for this weapon? if so I wouldn't use it.

You would feel under gunned with a .50 caliber browning machine gun round if it was a hollow point? Wow! I guess you should stick with solids from an elephant gun.