Palming the bolt vs using fingers?
- Thread starter nhyrum
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Mike Irwin
Staff
Literally...
Whatever works for you.
I think a lot has to do, though, with the type of action.
A Mauser-style cock on opening action is often easier to palm open because of the increased bolt lift. That's especially true if the case is sticky and resists the primary extraction that's also part of the bolt lift.
An Enfield-style cock on closing can generally be opened easily with the tips of 2 fingers and the thumb.
Whatever works for you.
I think a lot has to do, though, with the type of action.
A Mauser-style cock on opening action is often easier to palm open because of the increased bolt lift. That's especially true if the case is sticky and resists the primary extraction that's also part of the bolt lift.
An Enfield-style cock on closing can generally be opened easily with the tips of 2 fingers and the thumb.
Sure Shot Mc Gee
New member
As far as I know: How someone pulls a bolt. Perhaps depends on their body positioning. Standing~knelling~prone~sitting~likely influences such movement. Than again. I believe a bolts degree's of bolt movement upon cocking ~knob shape & knurling has allot to do with the procedure also.
So~~As for me. I found the blending of the two movements commented by the OP works for me in a Hot Spot.
So~~As for me. I found the blending of the two movements commented by the OP works for me in a Hot Spot.
FrankenMauser
New member
Depends on the action, and even the individual rifle.
In general (for me):
Straight-bolt Mausers get palmed (or "fisted"?).
Bent-bolt Mausers and similar designs (Rugers, Winchesters, etc, etc...) usually get palmed.
Mosin-Nagants are manipulated differently than anything else. Palm to unlock, grasp to open and close, palm to lock.
Marlin rimfires get 'fingered' if iron-sighted, palmed if scoped.
My 77/22 is 'fingered' (index finger forward, thumb on the back) due to bolt shape, scope clearance, and the fact that it isn't completely broken-in yet.
But, of course, none of that is set in stone. If I get handed a rifle with an excessively stiff bolt, strange scope interference, or an improperly adjusted sear (causing excessive closing force), I may have to deviate from habit.
And if it's a Savage B.Mag, closing the bolt involves the palm, a come-along, a tree stump, three hammers, and llama.
In general (for me):
Straight-bolt Mausers get palmed (or "fisted"?
).Bent-bolt Mausers and similar designs (Rugers, Winchesters, etc, etc...) usually get palmed.
Mosin-Nagants are manipulated differently than anything else. Palm to unlock, grasp to open and close, palm to lock.
Marlin rimfires get 'fingered' if iron-sighted, palmed if scoped.
My 77/22 is 'fingered' (index finger forward, thumb on the back) due to bolt shape, scope clearance, and the fact that it isn't completely broken-in yet.
But, of course, none of that is set in stone. If I get handed a rifle with an excessively stiff bolt, strange scope interference, or an improperly adjusted sear (causing excessive closing force), I may have to deviate from habit.
And if it's a Savage B.Mag, closing the bolt involves the palm, a come-along, a tree stump, three hammers, and llama.
There are plenty of techniques for manipulating a bolt action rifle.
Find one that works for you. For a 22 bolt action rifle I can simply use my fingers without breaking wrist contact from the stock with my firing hand as the bolt lift is so light and the throw is so short. Can't do that on a Mosin, Mauser, or Savage so the "knife blade" is a better technique.
Unless you plan on qualifying for the "mad minute" with a Lee Enfield or practicing to stop a dangerous game charge I see little value in prioritizing speed.
Jimro
Find one that works for you. For a 22 bolt action rifle I can simply use my fingers without breaking wrist contact from the stock with my firing hand as the bolt lift is so light and the throw is so short. Can't do that on a Mosin, Mauser, or Savage so the "knife blade" is a better technique.
Unless you plan on qualifying for the "mad minute" with a Lee Enfield or practicing to stop a dangerous game charge I see little value in prioritizing speed.
Jimro
With optics I find it harder to use my open palm and usually use my fingers.
Over the years I've found it useful to get off 1 or 2 repeat shots quickly on several occasions. It is something I practice and my best time for 3 shots is under 2 seconds. Most people never practice it with a bolt gun, but I've found that aimed repeat shots to be just as fast with a bolt gun as a pump or lever action. I can get off 3 un-aimed shots a fraction of a second faster with a pump or lever. But if I add the requirement that all 3 shots must hit a target the times are almost identical.
Over the years I've found it useful to get off 1 or 2 repeat shots quickly on several occasions. It is something I practice and my best time for 3 shots is under 2 seconds. Most people never practice it with a bolt gun, but I've found that aimed repeat shots to be just as fast with a bolt gun as a pump or lever action. I can get off 3 un-aimed shots a fraction of a second faster with a pump or lever. But if I add the requirement that all 3 shots must hit a target the times are almost identical.
Read an article by Finn Aggardd years ago about this. He was an African outfitter at the time. He used the "palming" method, and Lordy, was he FAST! I can see this in an African hunt, maybe in Alaska. All I know, Finn was mighty fast using that method. When your life depends on it, I reckon practice is King. Knowing your firearm in that type of situation is absolute.
.
This.
I've never been a big fan of the "muscle memory" concept. The brain runs the show, and practice is the key to learning. The more you practice, the more second nature it becomes.
I would guess action type, and well as the basic structure of an individual's hand, be it ham fisted, or a finer boned build, would be the defining nature of how that practice should go.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Bolt with finger and thumb, trigger with pinky. If the action isn't conducive to that method of operation get a different rifle
If you aren't pushing the speed limit, it really doesn't matter what method you use.
If you aren't pushing the speed limit, it really doesn't matter what method you use.
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I never grab the bolt. Never have. I slap the bolt up and rearward with the heel of my palm and slam it it shut the same way. This is the proper technique for rapid operation. Works with a bent bolt ala modern sporting rifles. Works with a "spoon" bolt ala European sporting rifles.
When the bad guys are in the wire and you are armed with a bolt gun you had better not be grabbing that bolt with your dang fingers.
When the bad guys are in the wire and you are armed with a bolt gun you had better not be grabbing that bolt with your dang fingers.
FrankenMauser
New member
I'll keep that in mind when the 'bad guys' start pouring out of the shed in my back yard, or charging from the berm at the range.
I'm a fan of the palm method. It is a bit faster. I shoot a lot of CMP matches. I find I can shoot my Model 1903a3 as fast as my Garand. Not meaning cyclic rate of fire, but aimed shots.
But going to the Krag, I've never found a smoother, faster action. My Model 1917 is a real wrestling match. I tried using the finger method, but I ran often run out of time, even cross fired in attempts to get the shots off.
I then went back and re-studied the writings of CPT. Edward Crossman on the subject. Slowed down and worked my way up to the timing I need to get the shots off in time and accurately. My last match with the M1917 was a heck of a lot better, time wise and was the best match I fired with this rifle.
With my Winchesters I wouldn't consider any other method. I have a 308 M-70 Target Rifle built by the AMU. It rivals my Krag.
As to the Mosin, In my CMP GSM clinics I teach to use the palm method with it. Palm up, pushing the bolt up, rolling back and pushing the bolt back into battery and its fairly smooth.
The trick as told by Crossman is not operating the bolt by the number, but one smooth act, palm up, rolling and slapping.
I thought about making a video on working the action using bolt with the palm method on different rifles but I haven't had good luck with posting videos as they seem to draw a lot of unrelated BS that gets the topic shut down.
One thing Crossman points out, in the rapid fire stage there is no reason the stock of the rifle should never leave the shoulder, except, of course when you load your second 5 round clip.
If one is really interested, I highly recommend reading Crossman's "Military and Sporting Rifle Shooting" on the subject.
I started HP shooting in the days when it was difficult to get a CMP Garand, (mid 70s) and M1As were just popping up, where many civilian shooters used bolt guns, Springfields and Winchesters. It was a pleasure to watch some of these guys shoot. There was very little movement of the shooter during rapid fire. Now, it seems to be a lost art. Watching some shooters shooting rapid fire with a bolt gun looks like somebody laid down on a pile of fire ants.
Dry firing and a bit of practice is all it takes. The Springfield and others its no problem, but on the M917 and similar rifles, you need to lock the follower down to keep it from locking the bolt. I found a nickel works well, sliding it under the rails, holding the follower down so it doesn't lock the bolt to the rear.
But going to the Krag, I've never found a smoother, faster action. My Model 1917 is a real wrestling match. I tried using the finger method, but I ran often run out of time, even cross fired in attempts to get the shots off.
I then went back and re-studied the writings of CPT. Edward Crossman on the subject. Slowed down and worked my way up to the timing I need to get the shots off in time and accurately. My last match with the M1917 was a heck of a lot better, time wise and was the best match I fired with this rifle.
With my Winchesters I wouldn't consider any other method. I have a 308 M-70 Target Rifle built by the AMU. It rivals my Krag.
As to the Mosin, In my CMP GSM clinics I teach to use the palm method with it. Palm up, pushing the bolt up, rolling back and pushing the bolt back into battery and its fairly smooth.
The trick as told by Crossman is not operating the bolt by the number, but one smooth act, palm up, rolling and slapping.
I thought about making a video on working the action using bolt with the palm method on different rifles but I haven't had good luck with posting videos as they seem to draw a lot of unrelated BS that gets the topic shut down.
One thing Crossman points out, in the rapid fire stage there is no reason the stock of the rifle should never leave the shoulder, except, of course when you load your second 5 round clip.
If one is really interested, I highly recommend reading Crossman's "Military and Sporting Rifle Shooting" on the subject.
I started HP shooting in the days when it was difficult to get a CMP Garand, (mid 70s) and M1As were just popping up, where many civilian shooters used bolt guns, Springfields and Winchesters. It was a pleasure to watch some of these guys shoot. There was very little movement of the shooter during rapid fire. Now, it seems to be a lost art. Watching some shooters shooting rapid fire with a bolt gun looks like somebody laid down on a pile of fire ants.
Dry firing and a bit of practice is all it takes. The Springfield and others its no problem, but on the M917 and similar rifles, you need to lock the follower down to keep it from locking the bolt. I found a nickel works well, sliding it under the rails, holding the follower down so it doesn't lock the bolt to the rear.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2ERkGd-Crg
Locked in a sling prone the rifle jumps around a bit less. I said a BIT, not that it doesn't jump around at all.
Locked in a sling prone the rifle jumps around a bit less. I said a BIT, not that it doesn't jump around at all.
I'm not a trainer, have received no "formal" shooting instruction since my Army days back in the 70s, so I MAY be misunderstanding the use of the term, but..
isn't "muscle memory" just the current buzz word term for what we used to call "training"??
The what, and how you do something once you have learned it to a level where you don't have to stop and think about what and how to do it??
I don't know about "speed shooting" a bolt action in matches, that's not my world, but I know a thing or two about what works for me for hunting and for fun.
It varies a little bit with different rifles, but the "open hand" method works very well for me, when speed matters. Also there is no reason to take the rifle off your shoulder, until you need to recharge the magazine.
Seen in in the real world often, and on the "silver screen" constantly, a supposed expert with a bolt action, taking it down from their shoulder, looking down at the rifle, then working the bolt.
I'm not a fan of checkered bolt knobs (for anything where rapid fire is even a remote possibility). The bolt knob should be smooth, so the open hand (palm, for most of us, fingers for some) can slip around it easily.
Open hand lifts the bolt handle, with enough of a cup (or curl) around to pull it all the way back, then flip your hand around the handle push forward, and down when closed. Takes much less time to do than say (or write).
No wrapping of fingers around the handle, no need.
If you want to see a young man who knows how to operate a bolt action, high powered rifle, get on youtube and watch the Franz Albrecht, Ottingen-Spielberg Wild Boar Hunting videos. I tried to bring them up here, but it wouldn't open. If you want to see an exceptional "shoot" on wild hogs in Europe (woods shooting), you really should take the time and watch them. It is truly amazing at how quickly this young man can shoot his Sauer 202 in .270 cal. It looks like he uses just his thumb, index and middle fingers to do his bolt work. Absolutely amazing.
I thought about that for many years and looked for film from earlier days for an answer.Finally I came across a film of aWWI training session. It was perfect as the camera was located on one end of the line and the soldiers could all be seen. Out of many soldiers , half used the thumb and forefinger and half used the palm !!
My M98 has a fine bolt for me , a 5/8" smooth ball !
On the other side would be for example a Remington checkered bolt handle.
I knew I was right .
My M98 has a fine bolt for me , a 5/8" smooth ball !
On the other side would be for example a Remington checkered bolt handle.
I knew I was right .
bamaranger
New member
bolt
I've seen some Herr Albrecht videos, and the guy is indeed a an amazing shot. Noticed for one thing that he was using a long tubed dot sight for his driven boar shooting. I also speculated that he might have been running a Mauser straight pull bolt, from the clips I saw, one could not tell. I certainly could be wrong about that, and the guy is indeed very, very good.
As far as my own bolt use, despite how much I would like to run all bolts by palming, I seem to grab with fingers on certain scoped rifles in my collection. I attribute that to the impression that I cannot get my hand/palm in and around the bolt handle on the return and then down stroke, and thus grasp with fingers. The scopes all have small bells and are mounted in low or X-low rings and close to the action. I guess maybe a technique error on my part, but I've not had any trouble with second shots on game when needed.
The rifles I can "palm" (maybe I should say "do palm") consistently are equipped with after market bolt handles. My Savage F-T/R has an after market bolt handle with a longer shaft and a near normal ball. It also has a large belled scope in medium rings and a 30mm tube. No trouble palming that one, and I run it that way. The Savage Scout has the big factory ball, and is unencumbered with a scope over the action. I've shot and dry practiced with that rig 'till the finish is worn off the knob.
I'll save my muscle memory/large muscle group/loss of fine motor skills arguement for another post.
I've seen some Herr Albrecht videos, and the guy is indeed a an amazing shot. Noticed for one thing that he was using a long tubed dot sight for his driven boar shooting. I also speculated that he might have been running a Mauser straight pull bolt, from the clips I saw, one could not tell. I certainly could be wrong about that, and the guy is indeed very, very good.
As far as my own bolt use, despite how much I would like to run all bolts by palming, I seem to grab with fingers on certain scoped rifles in my collection. I attribute that to the impression that I cannot get my hand/palm in and around the bolt handle on the return and then down stroke, and thus grasp with fingers. The scopes all have small bells and are mounted in low or X-low rings and close to the action. I guess maybe a technique error on my part, but I've not had any trouble with second shots on game when needed.
The rifles I can "palm" (maybe I should say "do palm") consistently are equipped with after market bolt handles. My Savage F-T/R has an after market bolt handle with a longer shaft and a near normal ball. It also has a large belled scope in medium rings and a 30mm tube. No trouble palming that one, and I run it that way. The Savage Scout has the big factory ball, and is unencumbered with a scope over the action. I've shot and dry practiced with that rig 'till the finish is worn off the knob.
I'll save my muscle memory/large muscle group/loss of fine motor skills arguement for another post.