P17 v. 1903 strippers & Sgt YORK

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bamaranger

New member
I have for many years been interested in the Alvin YORK MOH fight. There is a degree of controversy surrounding what rifle YORK actually used.

Recently an organization called the Sgt York Discovery Expedition has made repeated trips to France to pinpoint the site of the YORK fight. The group has conducted forensic type searches over the suspected areas. The organization maintains a website, and asserts now they have located the "exact" location. To the extent that the French agree and a memorial trail has been created.

Some of their evidence is a collection of ammo, spent cases, slugs, insignia, etc.They have a number of '06 cases and stripper clips. So here lies the question: Are P17 strippers and "03 strippers alike, interchangeable, etc?

The group maintains they have the exact site. They have a quantity of spent cases and stripper clips. If the two rifles use slightly different strippers, the ones associated with YORK's alleged flanking position should be of a specific type,and if the SYDE is correct in their site, indicate the rifle type.

Its a fascinating website, some of it gun heavy, and a tribute to YORK and the WWI vets whether you buy their theory or not. Their arguments and discoveries make an interesting read for any history or rifle buff.

What about the stripper clips?
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
The Model 1917 Enfield and the Springfield 1903 and variants use the same stripper clip, which had been adoped along with the rifle in 1903.



So how about a link to the website?


Never mind, found it: http://www.sgtyorkdiscovery.com/


Interesting, but the last thing I'd want to be doing would be digging willy nilly in a World War I battlefield.
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
It's always about what Stg. York shot because this is a firearms board, not a biography board.

There are probably more than a metric buttload of places on the web where you can read intricate details about every aspect of Sgt. York's life, from his hell raising younger days to his tax problems in later life.

But not here. Because those have little to nothing to do with firearms.
 
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Jim Watson

New member
Fascinating.
Fire up the Wayback Machine, Sherman, and pack the bulletproof vests.

I am with Mike. It has been several years since I had a report, but I bet they are still digging up unexploded artillery shells; some explosive, some gas. Now wouldn't finding a rusty mustard shell all at once be fun?
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
It's pretty apparent that that area of the country has been reopened to the public, so it has been at least somewhat cleared of ordnance over the years.

But nothing is absolute.

Areas that have been thoroughly "cleared" by the French Département du Déminage still cough up lots of shells.

There are large areas of France around Verdun (2 million acres) and other areas (10-15 million additional acres) that are still uninhabited. Just for comparison, that's an area the size of West Virginia.

And according to the French government, many of those areas likely never will be inhabited again simply because of the sheer number of shells that were fired into such a small area.
 
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T. O'Heir

New member
"...wouldn't finding a rusty mustard shell all at once be fun..." Happens regularly in Belgium and France. Permanent full time job for their EOD guys.
I very much doubt anybody could pinpoint a particular location anywhere in France. Between 8 Oct., 1918 and 11 Nov., 1918 a lot of arty was fired. The chances of the area looking even close to the same are slim.
 
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wogpotter

New member
Its the same in England.
What Americans call a "vacant lot" is called a "Bomb site" in the U.K. (regardless of if it was actually caused by a bomb or not).
We found an unexploded bomb digging in our yard in 1965, no-one thought it was a discarded boiler the first thought was UXB lets get out of here & call the police.
 
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Jim Watson

New member
"...wouldn't finding a rusty mustard shell all at once be fun..." Happens regularly in Belgium and France. Permanent full time job for their EOD guys.
Click to expand...

Some engineers from my agency took a tour and watched UXO pickup, I think in Belgium.
The farmers scrounged armor plate or at least boiler plate to put under their tractor seats, but still managed to blow a couple a year to Perdition.

If a farmer found a shell, he would put it in a utility pole - usually of honeycomb concrete construction, convenient pigeon holes for shells - and leave a card in his mailbox.
The UXO truck would come by and pick them up two or three times a week. One of the crew would shake the shell. If he could hear it slosh, gas, put on a bed of sand in the left side of the truck bed. If it didn't slosh, explosive, put it on the right side.
Come lunch time, back in to a parking place at the local bistro to block the tailgate, pull the canvas over the bed, and go in for food and beer.

Disposal budgets were low, they had stacks and stacks of shells at the idle demil facility.
But I had a picture of the gas shell demil facility. A nice mechanized setup to open, drain, and decontaminate the shells in a traveling grate furnace.
But, first, there was a table with the tools of the trade; gloves, hammer, and wire brush so an operator could clean up the shells so they would go through the demil line smoothly. A simple job if you didn't have too good an imagination about fuzes, bursting charges, and antique Lewisite, etc.
 
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tahunua001

New member
The two rifles use the same stripper clips. There is the the obvious fact that york was trained with a 1903 and was issued that rifle. The confusion comes in when you start to look at his diaries and see that because he was such an expert marksman he was very particular about accuracy. He eventually traded out his 1903 for another rifle that was more accurate but which the model was never specified. I like to think that because he offered a lot of first hand feedback for the making of the film sergeant york, and that film depicts him wielding a 1903, that means that was the model he used. One thing i dont understand is when he was discharged he was allowed to keep his rifle so why does nobody know what he used when he likely owned it to the day he died?
 
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kilimanjaro

New member
According to my WWI history shelves in the library, York carried the Springfield, as a recognition by his officers of his marksmanship, while the rest of his unit carried the Enfield. Others say he carried the unit issue Enfield. I think the Springfield wins out, York himself said it was a Springfield and that is backed up in the historical record, while Enfield is only backed up when you look at the unit, not the man.
 
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trigger643

New member
I guess the question of what rifle he was carrying didn't come up until after he was dead. His son, Andrew York insisted it was the '03 Springfield as his father had a preference to the open sights vs. the peep of the P17. It appears Alvin never documented what rifle it was, but from his notes, we know the 1911 was serial #254648
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
"...wouldn't finding a rusty mustard shell all at once be fun..."

Until this happens...

Blister-arm.jpg
 
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bamaranger

New member
replies

Thanks for all replies. Seems logical that the 03 & the P17 would take the same stripper. I was hoping that there might be some small difference in material, configuration...oh well.

The "American Rifleman" ran an article on YORK's rifle a few years back. I suppose many of us have read it.

The SYDE make a case on their site, taken in it's, entirety it's a compelling argument. For me anyhow. What....40 some odd '06 cases & strippers, 20 some odd .45 cases, slugs, the German relics, the lay of the land, I wanna believe it.

Here's to brave, country boys that can shoot.
 
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Mobuck

Moderator
Considering the number of soldiers firing untold numbers of rounds in the area over that period of time, how could anyone know which cases, strippers, or anything else York might have used that day?
 
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bamaranger

New member
more

The SYDE contends that the cases they have recovered have been examined forensically, and all came from the same rifle, same hole. The.45 acp brass came from two different pistols, 2/3 from one, 1/3 another. So they say. Same locale within feet of each other. An identity disk recovered on scene from a deceased German soldier matches the unit from which many of YORK's prisoners originated. There seems to be much German "surrender" gear about.
Check out the website. Read for yourself. Draw your own conclusions.

Its controversial for sure. There is another organization that contends that "they" have the site and that the SYDE is wrong.

Fascinating. Battlefield forensics.
 
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tahunua001

New member
it is interesting that after 97 years of degradation, corrosion, erosion, and other evidence destroying phenomenon, they can still, without a doubt prove that all of those casings were fired from the same gun. something seems fishy there. the dog tag seems legitimate though assuming you could still read it.
 
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kilimanjaro

New member
After a grass fire at Little Big Horn in 1983, archaeologists were able to locate hundreds of shell casings, bullets, buttons, buckles, and bridle bits. Everything was mapped, and the gun artifacts were examined for firing pin and extractor marks, bullets for rifling marks. Much of it was discernible after 108 years. They were able to track some individual Springfield rifles and revolvers across the battlefield from one location to another.
 
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tahunua001

New member
my dad found a lot of stuff near that battle field, the belt buckles, saddle bits and such as well as casings, none of the ones he recovered were anywhere near pristine enough to match to a particular gun. larger thicker items like horse harnesses were still intact enough to plainly see US markings.
 
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