Otherwise-Law-Abiding-Citizens

Karanas

New member
I participated in a discussion about concealed carry laws recently with several non-gun types following the narrow defeat of Prop.B in Missouri.
These were nice folks who, in their ignorance, just repeated some of the more common HCI type soundbites. You know: Dodge City bloodbaths, shootouts over minor fender-benders, senior citizen drive-by's at the Wal-Mart parking lot, etc..
They were willing to acknowledge that criminals who already had guns (illegally!) were a high risk factor. The common concern was that concealed carry laws would increase the number of firearms on the streets (legally) thereby increasing the possibility of an exchange of gunfire in their midst.
I pointed out that despite such claims by gun control advocates, the experience of all the states that have concealed carry laws proves otherwise.
Furthermore, only a small percentage of eligible citizens acquire such permits, AND (this is where I need some help) there is probably a significant number of Otherwise Law Abiding Citizens that carry a handgun without benefit of any legal sanction. My point being that the number of firearms in the public domain was probably greater than anyone cared to admit, and whatever comfort they took from this false sense of security, that the number of guns around them was in some way minimized was a sham.
I remember reading once (I can't remember where) that someone once estimated that as many as 700,000 OLAC's were carrying handguns in NYC, a la Bernard Goetz.
I admit that before Louisiana passed a concealed carry law and I acquired mine, that I occasionally carried a handgun illegally when I felt that my personal safety might be at risk.
I can't bring myself to believe that in places like NYC, LA or DC, where carry permits are virtually impossible to get, that a significant number of OLAC's don't carry anyway, risking criminal prosecution against fears for their own safety.
Does anyone out there know of any authoritative studies conducted on this subject? I can see that a major obstacle to conducting such a study would require that the subjects confess to breaking the law, so I don't know how anyone could come up with any reliable figures, but I've been surprised by the wealth of information I've encountered on TFL before.
 

DC

Moderator Emeritus
I don't know of any such studies, other than Dr. Lott's (2.5 million times a gun has averted a crime).

If one wanted to work for it (need a large sample base), you could correlate general police statistics on OLAC arrested or cited for an illegal carry gun, the same for OLAC prosecuted and extrapolate back to the general population

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 

Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
DC: No big deal, but it was Prof. Kleck's polling data which led to the "as many as 2.5 million" number. Lott studied crime rates vs gun laws/carry permits in ALL US counties/parishes.

A poll by Texas' Department of Public Safety found that of the hundred-thousand-plus CHLs issued in the first year or so, only around 20 percent bought a handgun to carry. This implies that 80 percent or so may well have carried--occasionally?--before they got a permit.

FWIW, Art
 

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
Another point you can develop, "If many people already carry guns, remember they have had little or no training. Many of them would get CHLs and carry legally if that were possible. They would then be much better trained, making them more thoughtful, more careful, less likely to do something stupid or dangerous, and more likely to be effective if needed. Wouldn't that be better than what we have now?"
Sorry to be off-thread with that. Maybe this will help:
As a CHL instructor, I confirm that at least half of all students in my CHL classes admit they previously carried illegally. The number is probably much higher - not everybody likes to say, "Yep, I was illegal!"

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited April 13, 1999).]
 

DC

Moderator Emeritus
I agree with Dennis...the majority of CCW States require training for issuance....thats a good thing.
I have been an OLAC at times ;)

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 

Grayfox

New member
I'll fess up. Before I got my permit I carried illegally quite often. I was working second shift in a part of town where night music included gun fire. The way I figured it was you got to still be alive to get arrested.
 

Gwinnydapooh

Retired Screen Name
My grandpa carried a small .380 illegally on his visor in his car while driving between Illinois and Texas (where they spend the winters.) Used to drive us crazy, 'cause in IL you have to have the gun empty, cased, and ammo in an area where you can't access both, so if he'd gotten pulled over he could have been in deep--but how do you argue with a man who lived through the depression and says to you "Buddy, I know. But there's people out there that'd just soon kill you as look at you." ? I chose "Be careful!"
 
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