Other "assault rifles"?

SIGSHR

New member
I was discussing this with a cousin, he pointed out that the first "true" "assault" rifle was the German Stg 43/44, the Soviets copied the round with their SKS then the "assault rifle" concept with the AK-47, then ?
IIRC in the early 1950s the Brits experimented with a .280 round in a bull pup
rifle, and then...? My cousin said the M-16 was something else, the developers of that took an existing cartridge-222 Remington (?) and altered it for military use and since it's below 30 caliber it's not a "kurz" round. So how many other widely used "assault rifles" have there been?
 

Jim243

New member
widely used "assault rifles" have there been

First that comes to mind was the "Brown Bess" (British Army), Springfield 1903 (USA), Enfield 303 (Brits Again), Sten Machine Gun (Brits), Mossberg 500, Remington 870, Sharps, M-62 machine gun (USA), Granad M1, GM M1 carbine.

The words" assault rifles" covers any weapon in a rifle caliber that is used by a military force as their main battle rifle, not just semi-autos or full autos.

Where the definition got lost in our stupid society I do not know.

The one that get's me is the "Sporting Arms" BS that is being used for the ARs and AKs. Like you need a rifle that can use 30 rounds or more to go hunting, and that they are no differerent than a Remington 700 or Savage Model 100 and should be considered the same. (this is beyound belief that grown men even try that BS).

But to each their own beliefs.
Jim
 

HorseSoldier

New member
"Assault rifle" is normally taken to mean a select fire long gun firing an intermediate power cartridge (meaning intermediate between pistol rounds fired by SMGs and rifle rounds in the 30-06, 303, 8mm Mauser sort of power level). 5.56x45 is an intermediate round same as 7.92x33 Kurtz -- the only twist being that people eventually figured out that Small Caliber High Velocity intermediate rounds offered better likelihood of hitting the other guy.

So the M16/M4 are also assault rifles, just a generation more advanced than the AK and the StG-44.

At least according to most. Everyone seems to have their own particular take on this sort of stuff, so dissenting opinions may be along presently.
 

ripnbst

New member
Lets not forget the FN FAL, and the Israeli Galil. Both very widely used by foreign military forces.
 

WeedWacker

New member
The one that get's me is the "Sporting Arms" BS that is being used for the ARs and AKs.

Remington%2520R-15%2520VTR.jpg



and


saiga308.jpg


That last one is not much different from your Garand in .308 win. Difference being location of piston/gas system (in the broadest sense of the terms) and a detachable mag.

The AR platform fires a variety of cartridges beyond the .223/5.56 that are fantastic for varmints and are accurate enough to compete with the average bolt gun. Not all STANAG pattern magazines are 30 rounds and not all AKs come in Russian calibers anymore. The sporting use of military arms, a tradition as old as the concept of firearm itself.
 

osallent

New member
The Saiga is actually a pretty decent sporting rifle based on the AK format. I nicknamed mine "Hog Slayer." :D I've killed about a dozen wild boars with mine.
 

bamaranger

New member
carbine

I dislike the term, but.......

What about the M1 Carbine as the first assault rifle. Intermediate cartridge, hi cap mags. Later versions were full auto. Some had folding stocks w/ pistol grips.

In the fight well before the Stg rifles.
 

Achilles11B

New member
I think the reason the M1 carbine isn't regarded as the first 'assault rifle' is because it wasn't in wide-scale usage. US troops were still being issued the Garand, the Thompson, the BAR, etc., along with the M1.
 

Sport45

New member
The one that get's me is the "Sporting Arms" BS that is being used for the ARs and AKs. Like you need a rifle that can use 30 rounds or more to go hunting,

There are other sports besides hunting. ;) I've never loaded more than 5 rounds in any of my AR mags.

To each his own. I just dislike people calling guns like mine "Assult Rifles" when no armed force I can think of would really want one when FA is an option.
 

HorseSoldier

New member
The M1 isn't select fire until the M2 carbines come out, which is after the StG-44 (and earlier iterations). I think some also question the round, but 30 carbine is only a little less powerful than 5.45x39.

I think a strong argument can be made that the M2 is the first American assault rifle.
 

Katophract

New member
When I see a field of Prairie dogs, I definitely want more than five rounds in the magazine. Thus, my AR-15 is a sporting arm. Or heck, I'm out on the range with my AK doing target practice and I just don't feel like reloading every five rounds. My AK is a sporting arm.
(back to the OP)
The Styer AUG has been used for a while as well as the British SA-80.
 

publius

New member
"The one that get's me is the "Sporting Arms" BS that is being used for the ARs and AKs."

Always good to see Second Amendment supporters on gun forums:rolleyes:

The Second is not about hunting, it is an affirmation of the people's pre-existing rights to protect themselves against oppressive governments.
Sorry for the hi-jack but I couldn't let that go.:mad:
 

44 AMP

Staff
The words" assault rifles" covers any weapon in a rifle caliber that is used by a military force as their main battle rifle, not just semi-autos or full autos.

Where the definition got lost in our stupid society I do not know.

Respectfully, I must disagree.

The defintion got lost in our stupid society due to the vagaries of defintion and translation in the our English language.

IF you use the word "assault" in the most common English defintion (to attack someone or something, physically) then you are technically correct in calling any weapon used in an assault an "assault weapon", and that would include knives, rocks, crowbars, baseball bats, golf clubs, fists, etc., etc., etc... Not just firearms.

But you would not be correct in defining an "asault rifle" that way. The history of the term is well known, and has been covered many times in many places. Unfortuantely, is has also been misdefined in as many, or even more places. And it is that misdefintion that causes all the confusion.

The term "assault rifle" comes from the translation of the term "Sturmgewehr", the name Hitler gave to the MP43/44 "machine pistols" when he approved them. They went from MP (MaschinenPistole) to Stg (Sturmgeweher) by Hitler's decree. In English, from submachinegun to assault rifle. The word "assault" is used in the military sense, assaulting/storming an objective, rather than in the common civilian sense, an attack on an individual.

From basically 1944 on, the term assault rifle as used by the military and the shooting community was defined by the general characteristics of the Stg 44. And those were, select fire, detachable magazine, and intermediate power (by WWII standards) cartridge. Most assault rifles, (but by no means all) also shared the general configuration of the Stg44, a (relatively) straight line stock, and a conspicuous pistol grip.

Over time the definition broadened a bit, but the primary features remained selective fire and an "intermediate" power cartridge.

There were a couple designs meeting those requirements before the Stg 44, but the name "assault rifle" was never applied to them before it was coined by Hitler. And there is still a small argument if they actually should be classed as assault rifles. The Russian Federov meets the mechanical defintion, but in 6.5x55mm is usually not considered an intermediate cartridge.

The accepted defintion of assault rifle was even loosly applied to semiauto versions in conversation for many years, and while not strictly accurate, we all knew what we meant.

Then comes the later half of the 1980s, and several mass shootings with AK semiautos. The media frenzy focusing the weapon and its calling them assault rifles. We tried to explain the difference, and for a short time they actually sort of listened, calling the guns "semiautomatic assault rifles".

But that was too cumbersome a sound bite, and they created the term "assault weapon". And assault weapon became codified in US law in 1994, as semiautomatic firearms with certain cosmetic features. Not one single true assault rifle was covered by the 1994 law. ALL assault rifles had been (and still are) covered under the NFA 1934, as under US law, they are machine guns.

You can call any gun used in an assault, an assault weapon, you can consider any military arm an assault rifle. But in my opinion, you are wrong doing so.
 

a7mmnut

Moderator
Well said, 44. I consider the Thompson as the first true "assault rifle", mostly because of its nasty reputation.

Submachine_gun_M1928_Thompson.jpg


-7-
 

Series70

New member
44 AMP,

Thanks for an excellent explanation and historical perspective. The most apparent feature of the "assault weapon" designation has been the recent political hysteria surrounding the use of the term, which, as you point out, has little basis in reality.

I've just finished reading The Gun by C.J. Chivers (of the New York Times, believe it or not.) Chivers traces not only the history of hand-carried automatic weapons in general, but the technical and political background of the Kalashnikov family of weapons, and he recounts what is essentially your point in some detail. Highly recommended.
 

Ozzieman

New member
"Sturmgewehr", the name Hitler gave to the MP43/44 "machine pistols" when he approved them.
Which took some time. When he first heard about the gun with a sub caliber round he forbid the gun to be produced. Actually ordered that the design work be stopped. Which every one ignored.
It was later when he heard some of his Generals ask for more of those great guns that were coming out that he actually got a chance to look at one and he then approved the production.
It then became another one of his wonder weapons.
I recently read a book that had some of President Eisenhower comments on the war and he was asked about Hitler. He said that Hitler was worth several American Divisions due to his stupidity and poor military decisions. The Sturmgewehr and the Me 262 that he wanted to turn into a bomber was proof of that.
 

Old Time Hunter

New member
Well call me old fashion, nor do I believe in a "living" Constitution and do not believe that "assault" rifle changed when Hitler decreed it so. Heck, our one military termed the '41 Mississipi rifle an assault rifle (short, rifled assault weapon), I'll dig up the specs, I have them somewhere. Even the original blunderbuss was issued to carriage guards as "assault" weapons.

Other than that...from a more modern percpective, the Tommy gun was issued before the Stg 43/44
 

44 AMP

Staff
"Sturmgewehr", the name Hitler gave to the MP43/44 "machine pistols" when he approved them.
Which took some time. When he first heard about the gun with a sub caliber round he forbid the gun to be produced. Actually ordered that the design work be stopped. Which every one ignored.
It was later when he heard some of his Generals ask for more of those great guns that were coming out that he actually got a chance to look at one and he then approved the production.
It then became another one of his wonder weapons.

I have heard some slightly different information, from a couple of different sources, and several agree exactly. It goes like this (not looking up specific dates)...

In 1942 (maybe early 43?), Hitler decreed that no further rifle designs were needed. All research and developement was to be turned to more "useful" areas. Further research and developement of SMGs was allowed. The designers, knowing they were on to something, used the fiction of calling the rifles MP so, since they were SMGs they flew under the beaurucratic radar of Hitlers order. Small lots of the guns were sent to the Eastern front for field testing, and were very well recieved by the troops.

Some officers returning from the front being awarded medals (and not knowing about the no new rifles order) when asked by Hitler what they needed, asked for more of the "new rifles"! Hitler was of course infuriated that his earlier order had been flouted, but after a few days, was given a demonstration of the "new rifle", and became very enthusiastic, nameing it the Sturmgewehr, and ordering increased production.

I have never run across any information indicating that the "sub caliber" had anything to do with it.

WWII started in Europe because of Adolf Hitler's decisions. Many of them are actually responsible for the early German victories. However many more of them, especially as the war went on, are clearly contributing, if not the sole cause to many losses and the ultimate German defeat.

Languages and translations can be very precise, and accurate, and still be wrong, when taken out of context. I prefer to use the term "assault rifle" for any and all of those guns sharing the basic Sturmgewehr features of select fire and intermediate power cartridge. Some flexibility is included, such as including the AR and other smallbore rounds, so long as they are above the power level of a standard WW II pistol round.

Here's a thought, why don't we start calling assault rifles by the other translation of the German "Sturm"? Storm. Now, of course its "storm the objective" the military sense, from context, but Sturm is also storm, as in bad weather. A rainstorm, etc.

Since most assault rifles are the most weather resistant practical, they are a good gun to use in the storm, right? I mean milspec metal finishes and plastic are pretty resistant to the rain and snow.;)

Since 1940 the Wehrmacht fielded a turretless tank mounting a 75mm cannon in the hull originally for infantry support, and later used for anti tank work as well. This is the "Sturmgeschuetz". Always translated in English as "Assault Gun". In 1944, the figher version of the Me 262 jet was named the "Sturmvogel" And this is always translated into English as the "Stormbird". Interessant, nicht wahr?

I guess "Assaultbird" just don't have the same ring to it?
 
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