OT - Boy Scout BS II - Read this article

[EnochGale]

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2000/03/14/pistol/index.html

When ever you decide to post how gays in some manner offend you, as in the Boy Scout debate - go read this article.

As to whether some is or is not a homophobe, it is interesting that most posts about gays are negative. You may couch it in terms of some outrage due to freedom of association
but I really don't buy that. Sorry. Grr faces - so what. Why bother to post the issue? I get pissed off about a lot of stuff and I don't post it to this group.

I said this:

The Scouts can do what they want.
They should get no government funds or support if they have discriminatory policies.
If they want to keep this policy, then it is my opinion that heir policy on the issue is misguided at best and bigoted at the worst.
No one has posted any rational reason for
discriminating against gays.

These debates usually end with somebody quoting Scripture about moral degenerates.
If you call them on it, then they get all huffy and puffy. You can challenge the moral character of a group if it is right-wing PC but when you are said to be wrong - my - it's flaming.

No, it isn't. If you want to take measures against a behavior, you have to justify it beyond arguments like God said so and God inspired the Constitution.

Remember all the religious justification for segregation.

I have a suggestion, if you don't like a group for any action that has nothing to do with firearms - who cares.

Thus, our thread about Mexicans was uncalled for, etc.

 

[TheBluesMan]

Is this topic about homosexuality or civil liberties?

Is it worth dividing ourselves over something that isn't related to the cause that we fight for together?

"That which unites us is infinitely more important than that which divides us."

------------------
RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website

 

[John Forsyth]

I read the first part, sorry did not get to add my little bit.

One, I have been active in the scouts for years. It is a PRIVATE organization. Never saw one little bit of government money to support our troops.

Two, You have to apply and fill out an application to join. They do not have to let you in.

Children have enough problems today trying to figure out what is right and wrong. You try to explain why telling a lie is wrong to a twelve year old, with the example our President sets. Homosexuallity is something I think they can wait to find out about, not have it thrust at them.

------------------
John

 

[ds1973]

I'm going to catch hell for this, but maybe they should stick to revolvers as "limp wristing" prevents a pistol from cycling properly and possibly jamming.

This article has nothing to do with the boy scouts. It is about a group of people who should arm themselves to prevent persecution. As John said, the boy scouts are a private organization and they should not be forced to accept anyone who's lifestyle conflicts with their value system.

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The first step is registration, the second step is confiscation, the final step is subjugation.

 

[John/az2]

So EnochGale, is this a question of whether or not gays should be armed?

I'd say so. They have the same unaliable rights as everyone else.

Or is this another argument that gays should be allowed in the BSA?

No. Their sexual lifestyle is contrary to their (the BSA's) moral code.

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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
www.cphv.com

[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited August 23, 2000).]

 

[Ledbetter]

Greetings,

This is what I think:

We are all God's children, made in his image. Judge not, lest ye be judged.

On the other hand, I control what my children do and who they associate with, as it is my responsibility to see that they grow up happy and have the greatest number of social, procreational and cultural opportunities available to them. No one should try to force me to allow my children to associate with any person over my objections, whether such persons agree with me or not.

Regards,

Ledbetter

 

[FUD]

EnochGale, I once again find myself having to respectfully disagreeing with you. As John/az2 pointed out, everyone has a right to be armed (unless they are a threat to the rest of society -- then they should be dealt with accordingly) -- this is a right bestowed on us by our Creator as recognized by our founding fathers. However, not everyone has a right to join a private organization. The people in those organizations also have rights, or did you forget about that.

Additionally, EnochGale, you're really starting to confuse me. You make statements like this ... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=28624: "When you can prove the existence of God then you might have a case."[/quote]... which leads one to believe that you do not believe in God -- which I don't have a problem with because everyone is entitled to believe whatever they wish but then you also make statements like this ... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=28445: "Each of us can read his or her post to God after we die. I'm comfortable with my position. Some of you will be spend eternity being dipped in lava by a giant Janet Reno."[/quote]... which leads one to believe that you DO have a belief in God. I find your position in regard to this matter a little confusing to say the least.
FUD

Share what you know & learn what you don't

 

[JerryM]

EnochGale,
The reason I/we quote scripture, and say that God has said, centers around the question as to who has the right to dictate or establish moral values. I don't have a right to "push" moral values that I have initiated upon anyone. However, the Sovereign of the universe does in fact have the authority and the right to do so. He has told us what He requires of mankind. At this point in time He does not rule with a "rod of iron." There will come a time when He will do so. There will also come a time when all humanity will answer to Him. I don't need to prove that God is or has the authority. He has said Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" You are free to accept or not, but you will answer for what you do about Jesus.
Ledbetter,
I agree with your statement regarding your children. I would like to point out that everyone is not one of God's children. It is true that God made man in His image. That image is marred by sin now. But, one is a child of God if He is in Christ. If he rejects Christ that person is a child of the devil. Jesus told the Jews John 8:42 " Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." The second thing is that the statement not to judge is one of the most incorrectly used verses in the NT. Christians are commanded to make judgements and to act accordingly. Romans 16:17 "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." 1 Timothy 5:20 "Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear." We make these judgements by comparing the conduct with God's Word.
For those who doubt that God is, He has spoken on this; Psalms 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good."
Jerry



------------------
Ecclesiastes 12:13  ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

 

[Jack 99]

Soooo. You're saying there are no gay groups that get any federal funding? Or meet at publicly funded venues like schools or civic centers? I'll bet I can dig up one or two.

If the gay and left-wing groups want to give up their little government funded goodies, then sure, the scouts should not be allowed to meet in places funded by taxpayers. But let's face it, MOST groups, regardless of affiliation or politics get some kind of little public subsidy. And most of them have an agenda. Leave the Scouts alone. If they are forced to admit gays, they aren't the scouts anymore as they've compromised their core principles.

 

[Ledbetter]

Jerry M,

I love God and believe the Bible. Your post reminded me why I don't care much for religion, however. People who claim to know God's will so surely and specifically are about as frightening to me as the government.

Best wishes to all,

Ledbetter

 

[Jeff Thomas]

I, and many others, welcome gays into the RKBA movement. It is quite logical that they recognize and support their right of self defense. The article you cite was noted on TFL many months ago, and as I recall, most people concurred with the author at the time.

But, as noted above, this really has nothing to do with the Scouts.

I think what's going on here is that some gays cannot stomach the continuing reality that some people still don't want to associate with them. I generally agree with you, that there is little or no reason to discriminate against gays. However, this situation is truly different from racial discrimination.

And, this government assistance argument is a red herring. C'mon ... when we hear people argue that Scouts meeting in churches and riding on public roads subjects them to government management in this area ... well, it proves to me that this is a bogus argument. Or, consider how groups like Act Up were vehement in their insistence that we spend more tax dollars to find a cure for Aids.

Isn't it ironic (or not?), that some gays argued that if Boy Scouts were coming down with Aids, then we'd be spending a lot more money on Aids research. Perhaps there is more to this hatred of the Scouts than meets the eye, eh?

Some gays, like some heterosexuals, are too flamboyant with their sexuality. When guys get overly macho around other guys, it's not much of a problem. But, if you have a Scout or Scout leader who is openly homosexual, and is perhaps also very effeminate, there may be problems.

But the details become unimportant in many ways. IMHO, it is the right of parents to decide who their kids associate with. Period. And, morality is central to Scouting ... face it - some people simply see homosexuality as immoral, whether or not you and gays agree.

And, if the Supreme Court had ruled against the Scouts, would you be insisting that boys cannot quit Scouting, and parents cannot pull their boys out of a troop with a gay leader? Will we have mandatory gay contact requirements? Perhaps homosexual reeducation camps for heterosexuals?

I realize that many great people have been gay. I also realize that many of us have worked with gays, and never even known. And, with only a couple of exceptions, I've had no problem with gays.

But [and, I know how much you love these buts ], people like having their boys in Scouts because of the great moral lessons and experiences available in Scouting. As the father of a 16-year-old boy, I can tell you that these kids get very confused during puberty. They're searching to find out who they are, and what they will become. Parents insist on their right to guide these boys through this period in the ways they prefer. And, that should be their right.


I'll say it again ... gay groups are simply driving a wall of increasing hatred if they keep going after the Scouts. And, if the rhetoric becomes increasing heated from this backlash, then we'll hear more about 'homophobia' and hate crimes. What an idiotic vicious circle.

Let's give it a rest, please ... but, I know the gay groups won't.

What is it with this country anymore? Reconsider the concept of freedom, and live and let live. These continued attacks on Scouting are vicious, counter-productive, and will maximize hatred. And, to what end?

Let's give it a rest, please.

Live and let live. Regards from AZ



[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited August 24, 2000).]

 

[Munro Williams]

It's about the right to choose your friends and who influences your children. Militants of any ideology place heavy emphasis on child indoctrination and are properly condemned. Why should militant homosexuals be treated differently? I am now considered a hatemonger because I do not want 5th graders being asked about their feelings on intimate behavior, and indoctrinated into a particular pus-brained mind set which makes no moral judgment, without which the Bill of Rights is a license to commit mayhem.

Like I quoted on the earlier thread:
"They're here. They're queer. They're after your children."

 

[KaMaKaZe]

EnochGale,

I seem to recall someone saying "Don't need this thread, do we?" in an earlier post... and then it ended with

"Debates such as this, though not strictly prohibited on TFL, obviously do nothing to further the cause of Responsible Firearms Ownership, nor do they aid in our fight retain/regain our right to Keep and Bear Arms.

Is a part 2 worth it?"

I'll cut a deal with you. I'll admit that I am sorry even posted this article to begin with, if you admit that you have an axe to grind on this subject.

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God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!

oberkommando sez:
"We lost the first and third and now they are after the Second!(no pun intended)"

[This message has been edited by KaMaKaZe (edited August 24, 2000).]

 

[EnochGale]

I agree the thread should end. It is not
worth pursuing and the topic is irrelevant to the TFL. They go nowhere. I stand by my opinions on the topic.

Kamakaze, whenever one posts such a topic mentioning gays it quickly degenerates into name calling or bigoted statements, like they are here and want our children. Do you know how many heterosexual child molestations take part (not aimed at you by the way)?

Then we go down the God trail as making the point - whether I believe or not isn't the issue.

No one deals point by point with the issues I raised. But, I'm not going to let gay hating or other discriminatory statements go unchallegened. That's why you might think you posted an innocuous topic - I will give you the benefit of the doubt but other posters aren't like that at all. The freedom of association issue is a shame but I agreed that the BSA could do privately what they wanted. I also said the policy was stupid.

I am taking my axe off the grindstone as I assume the rest of you are.

Let's just let our opinions of gays, etc. be posted on other forums.

[This message has been edited by EnochGale (edited August 24, 2000).]

 

[JerryM]

Ledbetter,
You said: "I love God and believe the Bible." What followed, however, puzzles me. By its definition you are religious. In my post I simply used the Bible to show that Christians are to make judgements and that all people are not children of God. In what way do you think I have distorted the Bible? As to knowing God's will, we can and do know His will about those matters on which He has made His will known in the Bible. We know He wills that people be holy. He requires His children to be holy. We are to be separated from sin and worldliness and separated unto God. His will is clear. 1 Peter 1:16 "Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." He would have us to stand fast, therefore, against sin. He has said many things about sin and what constitutes sin. We know His will on that. If you really love God you will want to know what pleases and what displeases Him, and will want to be obedient to Him. It is, therefore, necessary to have knowledge of His Word. That requires much diligent study. Only in this way can you know His will and demonstrate your love for Him. If one is not a Christian he does not love God the Bible says. John 5:23 "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." I would appreciate a reply regarding in what manner you think I have misused Scripture. Regards, Jerry


------------------
Ecclesiastes 12:13  ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

 

[KAM_Indianapolis]

The Right of Association is a shame. It is a civil right, would you call the rest of our rights a shame. The BSA has the right to associate with whomever they choose. If you have a problem with public funding of organizations like this, than voice it. But don't deny them their rights, in pursuit of what? The freedom to force people to associate with each other. I have nothing against any group, ethnic or other.

Comments from the following webpage http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate/constitution/amdt1.html

``It is beyond debate that freedom to engage in association for the advancement of beliefs and ideas is an inseparable aspect of the `liberty' assured by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment,
which embraces freedom of speech. . . . Of course, it is immaterial whether the beliefs sought to be advanced by association
pertain to political, economic, religious or cultural matters, and state action which may have the effect of curtailing the freedom to associate is subject to the closest scrutiny.' It would appear from the
Court's opinions that the right of association is derivative from the First Amendment guarantees of speech, assembly, and petition, although it has at times seemingly been referred to as a separate,
independent freedom protected by the First Amendment. The doctrine is a fairly recent construction, the problems associated with it having previously arisen primarily in the context of loyalty-security investigations of Communist Party membership, and these cases having been resolved without giving rise to any separate theory of association.

If we have a private gun club, do we have to allow some MMMommy membership. NO... Do we have to give the membership list to the govt, NO...


[This message has been edited by KAM_Indianapolis (edited August 24, 2000).]

 

[Ledbetter]

Jerry,

You said: "I would like to point out that everyone is not one of God's children. . . . If he rejects Christ that person is a child of the devil." You are demonizing most of the persons in the world, very unChristian in my view. Also misanthropic.

You construe 1 Timothy 5:20, "Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear," to mean that you are better in God's eyes than someone with whose lifestyle you do not agree. I am sure this brings you some comfort, but it doesn't mean you have the right to judge others as wanting in God's eyes. That is His province alone. To think otherwise is the height of arrogance.

Regards to all,

Ledbetter

 

[FUD]

I wasn't going to get involved with this any longer since it has drifted far from the RKBA issue but this is going out to Ledbetter & JerryM because I hate to see two people whose opinions I value disagree with each other. So ... let me give you my take on it.

It is God's desire that no one be lost because we are all made in his image and likeness. There is no church that I am aware of which official states that a particular person has been damned to hell. The reason is that we as motrals do not know. God's mercey is open to all just for the asking. There is not a single sin that Christ did not die for. He died for all of our sins. If we turn to God with honest contrition in our hearts, His mercey will be extended to us but that is something between an individual and God.

Having said all of that, it is very important to live a good, decent, moral life because the further we are away from God, the greater the danger that we will fail to honestly ask for His mercey when we need it the most. Therefore, it is the duty of churches to point out our failures and get us back on the right path if we have drifted away.

Now a church is obviously is made up of members and those members can (and will) have failings of their own but the church itself should be free of any such failings and it should strive to keep ALL of it's members on the straight & narrow path.

I hope this helps. Regards, FUD.

 

[TheBluesMan]

Well, since EnochGale and KaMaKaZe have been the principals in this debate, and since they have agreed to disagree, and since this thread is veering back into a religious commentary/debate; I am closing this thread.

I believe that it has run it's course and that there is nothing more to be gained by further debate. We're beating a dead horse here, folks.

If anyone would like to continue the debate about religion, homosexuals and civil rights issues, email me. I know of a good place where discussions of this type are welcome.


------------------
RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website

 

[EnochGale]

So much for ending it - see what I mean - now
we are going off into theology.

Kam - read what I said. I say and I will
shout:

THE BSA IF PRIVATELY FUNDED CAN DO WHAT THEY WANT. THEY DON'T DEPRIVE ANYWAY OF A JOB OR HOUSING OR ANY OTHER RIGHT THAT I SEE.

IF THEY WANT TO BE DISCRIMINATORY THAT'S FINE.

IF THEY DO, THEN NO GOVERNMENT MONIES FOR THEM.

I THINK THEIR POLICY IS STUPID AND THE ARGUMENTS FOR IT ARE SPURIOUS.

OTHER GROUPS HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL THEM THIS ALSO AS YOU CAN DEFEND THEM.

That wasn't too hard.