Order for Diplomats to Serve in Iraq Met With Revolt

Musketeer

New member
I have a host of feelings on this.

1. They took an oath to serve where needed. Just like soldiers should not be able to pick and choose neither should they.

2. This is about 48 positions it sounds like... they cannot find 48 people willing to fill these open position? They have 200-300 candidate and can't find 48 willing to obey their oath? Time to clean house I think.

3. When you cannot find diplomats to go there you have to wonder how there can be any resolution to this thing...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,307123,00.html

Order for Diplomats to Serve in Iraq Met With Revolt
Wednesday, October 31, 2007

WASHINGTON —

Several hundred U.S. diplomats are venting anger and frustration about the State Department's decision to force foreign service officers to take jobs in Iraq. Some liken it to a "potential death sentence."

In a contentious hourlong town-hall meeting at the department on Wednesday, the angry diplomats peppered officials responsible for the order with often hostile complaints about the largest diplomatic call-up since the Vietnam War. Announced last week, it will require some diplomats, under threat of dismissal, to serve at the embassy in Baghdad and in reconstruction teams in outlying provinces.

Many expressed serious misgivings about the ethics of sending diplomats against their will to work in a war zone, where the embassy staff is largely confined to the protected "Green Zone," as the department reviews use of private security guards to protect its staff.

"Incoming is coming in every day, rockets are hitting the Green Zone," said Jack Croddy, a senior foreign service officer who once worked as a political adviser with NATO forces.

He and others confronted Foreign Service Director General Harry Thomas, who approved the move to "directed assignments" late Friday to make up for a lack of volunteers willing to go to Iraq.

"It's one thing if someone believes in what's going on over there and volunteers, but it's another thing to send someone over there on a forced assignment," Croddy said. "I'm sorry, but basically that's a potential death sentence and you know it. Who will raise our children if we are dead or seriously wounded?"

No U.S. diplomats have been killed in Iraq, although the security situation is precarious and completion of a new fortified embassy compound and living quarters has been beset by logistical and construction problems.

Still Croddy's remarks were met with loud and sustained applause from the approximately 300 diplomats at the meeting.

Thomas responded by saying the comments were "filled with inaccuracies." But he did not elaborate until challenged by the head of the diplomats' union, the American Foreign Service Association, who, like Croddy and others, demanded to know why many learned of the decision from news reports.

Thomas took full responsibility for the late notification. But he objected when the association's president, John Naland, said a recent survey found only 12 percent of the union's membership believed Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was "fighting for them."

"That's their right, but they're wrong," Thomas said, prompting a testy exchange.

"Sometimes, if it's 88 to 12, maybe the 88 percent are correct," Naland said.

"Eighty-eight percent of the country believed in slavery at one time; was that correct?" shot back Thomas, who is black, in a remark that drew boos from the crowd. "Don't you or anybody else stand there and tell me I don't care about my colleagues. I am insulted," Thomas added.

Rice was not present for the meeting. Her top adviser on Iraq, David Satterfield, attended.

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack acknowledged the session was "pretty emotional." He praised Thomas for holding it, and he stressed that all diplomats sign an oath to serve, obligating them to be available to work anywhere.

"It's a pretty sensitive topic and understandably, some people are going to have some pretty strong feelings about it," McCormack told reporters after the meeting. "Ultimately, our mission in Iraq is national policy. It is the foreign policy set out by the secretary as well as the president of the United States."

He added that the results of the union's poll about Rice were "very unfortunate" because "she is deeply concerned with, by and involved in the management decisions regarding the Foreign Service (and) working as hard as she possibly can to get the resources for the State Department."

Other diplomats at the meeting did not object to the idea of directed assignments. But they questioned why the State Department had been slow to respond to the medical needs of those who had served in dangerous posts.

"I would just urge you, now that we are looking at compulsory service in a war zone, that we have a moral imperative as an agency to take care of people who ... come back with war wounds," said Rachel Schneller, a diplomat who served in Basra, Iraq. She said the department had been unresponsive to requests for mental heath care.

"I asked for treatment, and I didn't get any of it," she said in comments greeted with a standing ovation.

Thomas, in his job for just a few months, said the department was working on improving its response to stress-related disorders that "we did not anticipate."

Under the new order, 200 to 300 diplomats have been identified as "prime candidates" to fill 48 vacancies that will open next year at the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad and in the provinces. Those notified have 10 days to accept or reject the position. If not enough say yes, some will be ordered to go.

Only those with compelling reasons, such as a medical condition or extreme personal hardship, will be exempt from disciplinary action. Diplomats forced into service in Iraq will receive the same extra hardship pay, vacation time and choice of future assignments as those who have volunteered.

More than 1,200 of the department's 11,500 Foreign Service officers have served in Iraq since 2003. But the generous incentives have not persuaded enough diplomats to volunteer for duty in Baghdad or with the provincial reconstruction teams.

The move to directed assignments is rare but not unprecedented.

In 1969, an entire class of entry-level diplomats was sent to Vietnam. On a smaller scale, diplomats were required to work at various embassies in West Africa in the 1970s and 1980s.
 

rampage841512

New member
Let me take my guns and I'll take one of those jobs. The pay is got to be better than what I'm making now. What's that you say? Not qualified? I'm a quick study!:D

On the other hand, I'm a little too direct and honest for a diplomat.
 

joab

New member
They absolutely should not be compelled to go to Iraq against their will

They should be free to choose another profession (out side of the government) if they can't live up to their commitment to this one
 

JuanCarlos

New member
They absolutely should not be compelled to go to Iraq against their will

They should be free to choose another profession (out side of the government) if they can't live up to their commitment to this one

Would you say the same of soldiers? Service in dangerous areas is actually part of a diplomat's job, just like a soldier's. Iraq is "stable" enough that we've established an embassy, so somebody needs to staff it.

Besides which, from reading that I didn't see any mention of criminal penalties for refusing to go...just "disciplinary action." [EDIT: and "threat of dismissal"] So it sounds like the worst that can happen if they refuse is that they can be fired.

Where's the problem?
 

JWT

New member
If they're unwilling to accept the risk associated with their employment they should resign and do something else.
 

famine

New member
If you agree to do a job you should do it. I hate flying but my job requires it from time to time, breath deep, swallow the lump in your throat, and go.
 

joab

New member
Would you say the same of soldiers? Service in dangerous areas is actually part of a diplomat's job, just like a soldier's.
Is the commitment signed the same

In know what I agreed to when I joined the military, I have no idea what diplomats are subject to

Did they agree to abide by and be judged by the UCMJ as soldiers do?
 

JuanCarlos

New member
Is the commitment signed the same

Nope. Then again:

They should be free to choose another profession (out side of the government) if they can't live up to their commitment to this one

This is what I was replying to. So the commitment they signed is irrelevant, if you think they should be able to simply choose another profession if they don't live up to it. Soldiers can go to prison for this, where a diplomat can just be fired.

So I was seeing if you really meant what you wrote or not.

In know what I agreed to when I joined the military, I have no idea what diplomats are subject to

More in a sec...

Did they agree to abide by and be judged by the UCMJ as soldiers do?

Of course not. But again, if we're letting people not live up to their commitments...


Now, on the middle one: of course you have no idea what diplomats are subject to. I'm assuming you're not interested in a career as a diplomat, and certainly haven't pursued one. If you have actively pursued such a career (to the point of, you know, being hired) without having some idea of what you could be subject to, you would be a moron.

As I said, diplomats can be sent to dangerous posts...just like soldiers. I find the idea that somebody would sign up for this job, knowing this, with what appears to be the intention of telling the government to go screw themselves if they're asked to actually do so, somewhat abhorrent. Yes, I feel the same way about soldiers who would refuse a deployment. As well as civilian contractors who refuse to go on "dangerous" convoys while in country (seen it a few times). The point is that both positions should honestly be held to their commitment with fear of criminal prosecution, or neither should be.

But the military issue is tangential anyway...in this case nobody is forcing these people to go "against their will." Not one of them will end up in Leavenworth if they refuse. It's simply a requirement of their jobs, that they are absolutely free to meet or not depending whether they want to keep said job. As such your first post made no sense.
 

joab

New member
This is what I was replying to. So the commitment they signed is irrelevant, if you think they should be able to simply choose another profession if they don't live up to it. Soldiers can go to prison for this, where a diplomat can just be fired.
You're all over the place, so Ill ask again
Did they sifgne and agree to the same commitment as a soldier?
Did they agree to abide and be judge by the UCMJ like a soldier?

If not why do you keep trying to compare them to soldiers

I asked these questions before in direct response to your direct question to me question comparing them to soldiers

Why would you suppose that I would not mean what I said, if they can't do the job find another
Unless you can show me where they signed or agreed to stiffer punishment I don't understand your insistence on comparing them to soldiers
 

44 AMP

Staff
US Govt. employees...

Other than the military have the ability to resign their job if they dislike the requirements. Military does not. Other than that, the same basic rule applies. Your employer (the US Govt) tells you where to go and how to do your job.

I have no (ZERO, NONE) sympathy for those poor diplomats who are opposed to going in harm's way. They are NOT better than our soldiers just because they have a "better" job or a "better" education, or come from "better" families. They are not even being asked to run the same risks as our soldiers! And they are whining about that. Pampered, spoiled, elitists!

They should be given a choice. Obey, resign, or be terminated! (from govt service, with appropriate references in their employment history as to WHY they were separated from Govt service)

As someone who has had their child serve in Iraq, I find any govt employee whining about how dangerous it is, or how they are too "valuable" to go to be an insult to myself, the parents of all the serving military, and the serving military personell themselves.

My emotional response would be to shout at them, " I PUBLICLY BRAND THEE A COWARD!, AND UNWORTHY OF RESPECT! YOU SHOULD BE SHUNNED!" Then turn our backs and walk away. Never so much as even looking at them again. If they have the courage to actually give up their chushy jobs rather than go to Iraq, fine. Let them. But don't ask me to respect their moral courage, because I don't, and I won't.

Actually I would rather see them shot, but that it not a realistic attitude, even if it is emotionally satisfying as a fantasy.;)
 

JuanCarlos

New member
Why would you suppose that I would not mean what I said, if they can't do the job find another
Unless you can show me where they signed or agreed to stiffer punishment I don't understand your insistence on comparing them to soldiers

You're correct, it's really an invalid comparison. I just think that anybody that signs up for job that may require being put in danger with the intent of quitting if that time ever comes is a douchebag...whether diplomat, civilian military contractor, or soldier.

But it is true that these douchebags didn't specifically sign paperwork saying they could go to prison if they choose this route...so they're absolutely free to simply accept dismissal instead.

They should be given a choice. Obey, resign, or be terminated!

I disagree. Only living up to their commitment or termination should be offered. No voluntary resignation. Other than that, I'm with you.
 

joab

New member
I just think that anybody that signs up for job that may require being put in danger with the intent of quitting if that time ever comes is a douchebag.
We can agree on that
But I wonder how many of them would have agreed in the first place if there was not a punk clause to begin with

I disagree. Only living up to their commitment or termination should be offered. No voluntary resignation. Other than that, I'm with you.
We agree, but I would add loss of any pension or benefits and life time banishment from government service
 

Eghad

New member
They all took the oath when they hired on. They need to be fired if they dont go. Nothing hard about that.
 

Crosshair

New member
OK, I need some info here. How long are they going to be over there? If it is for a 1 year tour and they don't have to even leave the compound, then I say "fire their ass."

However, if they are looking for people to live there for several years at a time, that would probably involve bringing their families with them. If that is the case then I can see them having a reasonable case for not wanting to go.
 

joab

New member
No matter
A year or ten if they knew this was a condition of their employment when they started and are now refusing to honor that commitment they should be fired and sent to fend for themselves in the private sector
 

Manedwolf

Moderator
The diplomats are revolting?

Of course they are. They're government bureaucrats. I find most to be rather revolting.
 

IZinterrogator

New member
"It's one thing if someone believes in what's going on over there and volunteers, but it's another thing to send someone over there on a forced assignment," Croddy said. "I'm sorry, but basically that's a potential death sentence and you know it. Who will raise our children if we are dead or seriously wounded?"
Wow, federal employees complaining that they are being treated just like... certain other federal employees! :barf:
I have no (ZERO, NONE) sympathy for those poor diplomats who are opposed to going in harm's way. They are NOT better than our soldiers just because they have a "better" job or a "better" education, or come from "better" families. They are not even being asked to run the same risks as our soldiers! And they are whining about that. Pampered, spoiled, elitists!
Amen, brother. I have had the pleasure of having six Soldiers serve under me who have master's degrees, with twice that number working towards theirs. Anyone who says they are better than my troops will have their elitist attitude removed by spending a day working next to them.
 

buzz_knox

New member
They are doing this because 1) many of the career bureaucrats have world views very different from reality and what to change reality to fit said views (i.e. a whole lot of "fellow travelers" in State with a history of doing as they want, not as directed), 2) they see an opportunity to affect "change" via this revolt, and 3) they think they have political cover to pull this off without repercussions.

There are many consulates and embassies around the world where diplomats don't want to serve, often with equal risks. Yet, they volunteer (with or without the alternative being termination or career suicide).

I wonder how many of these people are discouraged by Blackwater being pulled out. Sure, they may hate Blackwater and everything about the group, but they probably liked the idea of no Blackwater protectee being killed.
 
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