Opinion on being rejected for firearms purchase.

[MurBob]

Hi Folks, this is my first post here. I'm not a big gun hobbyist but I do own several (6 or 7) firearms. I'm also a hunter with a Rem870.

I have a question about an unfortunate incident my wife and I experienced this evening. I apologize if this gets lengthy but I think its important to understand the situation before giving me some input.

While I don't carry a weapon myself, I have suggested to my wife that she should carry one when she's out for nature walks with our 3 year old or when she has to drive down to the city for anything. Backdrop: We live out in the country on 10+ acres surrounded by woods and corn fields. I'm about 50, she's about 40, we are both educated and normal every day people. Frequent news media incidents of pitbull attacks and country living homeowners being tied up, beat up, and robbed in their own homes have sort of driven us both to the point where we think its time for her to get a CPL license. This is something we've discussed on and off for over the past five years or so every time we hear one of these local news stories.

So this evening at around 5pm, we drove to the local gun shop with the intent to purchase a semi-auto pistol if she found one that she was comfortable with. There's a local guy down the road who has regular training classes to get the CPL permit every other week for $100.

While my wife has fired my guns in the past, she's never handled one without strict supervision by me and has only fired a total of a couple dozen rounds in her whole life. She's European and is not accustomed to guns so they make her nervous. She's not against them in any way, its just that she recognizes the danger and won't even pick one up in the house until I've cleared it. (And no, our 3 year old can not get access to any of them for those of you who are wondering)

So we go to the gun shop and she handles several small pistols like the newer glock 42/43 made for small hands.

She had some trouble pulling the slide back, and figuring out how to release it.. Played with the weapon, flipped it back and forth, felt the weight, pointed it, etc etc. You know, the normal thing someone does.

After experiencing four or five different brands and 45 minutes of asking questions, we settled on the M&P Shield in the 9mm because she said it fit her hand and she liked the additional thumb safety switch.

I tell the customer service guy to write it up and he pauses.. Turns bright red in the cheeks and says "I have to be honest with you man, I'm not going to sell you this gun today" I had little reaction because I wasn't actually sure if our state (Michigan) had a 3 day waiting period or not.. Then he went on to explain his decision in that he didn't feel comfortable because she had pointed the gun in the direction of other people in the store and that "We always treat the gun as if its loaded"..

Please note that for the entire 45 minutes we were there, only one other customer walked in and was gone within 3 minutes and my wife never pointed the gun at anyone intentionally. I can not say however that the gun was never pointed at anyone when she was playing with the slide or safety and rotating it in her hands.

I'm a middle aged man, been around for a while and I'm pretty sure that arguing with a gun store guy about why he won't sell you a gun would probably be about a futile as arguing with a police officer.. So I said to my wife "Honey, he has an inherent duty to reject the sale of any firearm to anyone he's not comfortable with". My wife was not the least bit upset that we couldn't purchase the gun, but she was a bit perplexed on why the guy blamed it on her handling the weapon in the store. She did not actually say anything until afterwards. He then mentioned that we should come back and I asked "in a week?" and he said "Ya, whatever".. then I said "is 3 days long enough?" to which he said "Sure"..

I said think you for your time showing us our choices and we left.. I should have probably tried to press him for more explanation but I was so stunned he refused us that I just figured the best course at that time was just to say "I understand".

The process of what the heck just happened starts........

The store closes at 6pm, we finally decided what to purchase at about 5:50 pm.. Did this store employee just want to get home on a Friday night and didn't want to stick around long enough for us to fill out the paperwork???
(Found out from Facebook that the guy is actually the store owner. His facebook page is filled with the typical country boy stuff like hunting pictures, trucks, guns, American patriotic stuff.

Is it possible that he had a problem with my wife's foreign accent? (She's white, tall, thin, and ten times prettier than what I deserve, so I'd have a hard time buying that it was any kind of racial thing). She educated and speaks 4 languages.. We're both normal white people so its hard to believe it was racial based on her accent.. but who knows I guess..


Is it normal for a gun shop to refuse to sell a gun to someone who's not familiar with firearms or how to handle them? Isn't that what a CPL class is for? Isn't that what husband supervision is for?

If one is to always assume a gun is loaded, how is it possible to clean the gun? I would never clean a gun I assumed was loaded would you? Seems silly in this respect.

My wife did a bit of googling and mentioned that the store owner might have thought it was something called a "straw sale" and that I was having her buy the gun for me.. Huh? I'm perfectly legal to buy a gun.. he could have run my background too for all I care.. And why would I want to buy a girly gun that's far too small for my hands?

Nothing of this makes sense to me..

I'm hoping some of you who are more experienced in these matters could possibly shed some light on this. What am I missing?

 

[rickyrick]

I was rejected at Academy once because I let my future Ex-Wife handle the gun. the clerk said he couldn't be sure who the gun was being purchased for.
I went back the next day and purchased the gun for myself just fine with no problem... I didn't let anyone else handle the pistol during the second attempt.

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

If the clerk was that uncomfortable with what your wife was doing, he should have helped her by politely correcting what she was doing.

Gun safety is everybody's business and the best time to correct someone is immediately when it happens - that's how you learn.

What's not cool is complaining about it after the fact. Sounds to me like two people could have made mistakes - your wife and the clerk.

If you know what kind of gun your wife wants, then go to a different gun store and just buy the gun without any handling involved.

Then, make sure she takes a training class.

If one is to always assume a gun is loaded, how is it possible to clean the gun?

Please, now you're playing games with semantics - just stop. Obviously, if you're making that kind of statement, you need to take a training class too.

Before you clean a gun, you verify it is empty - you don't assume it is empty. Every gun is assumed to be loaded until you personally verify it is empty. This means there are no rounds in the chamber, cylinder, and if a semi-auto, no magazine in the gun - and you personally have checked all of those things before proceeding any further.

 

[MurBob]

Yes, I was just being sarcastic about the cleaning.... I'm always a bit frustrated when I fail to understand something that seems so simple. The clerk checked each weapon before handing it to us, then I checked it for its feel and quality and its just second nature for me to always clear a weapon when I pick it up.. then I handed it to her.. at that point, its nothing more than a paper weight.

I think the safety thing was just an excuse.. Something else is going on.. maybe its standard procedure to deny random people? The other poster who replied was also denied...

 

[MurBob]

I was rejected at Academy once because I let my future Ex-Wife handle the gun. the clerk said he couldn't be sure who the gun was being purchased for.
I went back the next day and purchased the gun for myself just fine with no problem... I didn't let anyone else handle the pistol during the second attempt.

Interesting.. thank you for the reply.

So a denial isn't really a permanent thing.. its more of a "I don't like you today for whatever reason"...

 

[scrubcedar]

Quietly go somewhere else

It's obvious that you were embarrassed by how this was handled and you're still very upset. An Owner/ General Manager's job is to be able to handle conflict in such a way that the customer doesn't feel how you feel after the interaction. As someone who has been in that level of management for years this type of thing is exactly what makes or breaks you.

That being said he may have really been uncomfortable and worried depending on how it looked from his point of view. If you had been in his position you might have felt that there was a significant risk that she would go home, load the pistol, and quite possibly shoot you or someone else accidentally. Trusting that you are a good man, you might have said no to the purchase as well. You might think that you were quite possibly saving her from the guilt as well the other person from the injury.

Quietly go somewhere else and purchase the pistol. If after your wife, and possibly yourself as well, go through the training you still feel the same about the encounter call the business owner up and quietly and humbly give the person the feedback that they might very well need to be able to stay in business. You might actually help the guy get better and save his business. Local small businesses have enough of an uphill battle as it is, never knowing what they did wrong doesn't help.
Take the high road. I know from tough experience how much better it feels looking back on it.

 

[Water-Man]

Take your business elsewhere.

 

[Bluestarlizzard]

I'm guessing the safety thing is bull.

I would also think either he thought it was a straw purchase or that he got up on the wrong side of bed this morning.

For poops and giggles, I'd even go back tomorrow and buy something on the cheap side (maybe a little .22 for plinking when your kid gets a bit older) and see what the guy says when you clear the background check.

 

[1stmar]

If he was legitimately concerned about the gun covering people he should have said something when it happened. Else, he should have inquired about training for her and or suggested it while she was handling it. Part of me is pleased that he was discriminating enough to avoid a sale, however he shouldn't have waited till you said you wanted to buy it and should have politely recommended training or better yet said "miss, let me help you, you look new to firearm handling. Here are gun safety rules that are never to be violated...". For someone who probably sees this frequently it seems poorly handled. If it were me, I would have (and have done so) quietly corrected it myself when it happened.

Fwiw I see this behavior all the time at busy gun stores and no one says anything. It's not unusual and I always questioned (to myself) how it is acceptable. Yet, no signs in any store and no one says anything. Depending on the store layout it's almost impossible not to cover someone, even if only briefly, when looking at a gun. Something I am most cognizant of. There is a popular gun store near me where the counter is in the center of the store with people on all sides. Just laying the gun on the counter, it likely is pointing at someone.

Sounds like he had the right intentions but handled it poorly. Any other experience with this gun shop?

 

[R1145]

I think you should take the guy at his word: Perhaps he sensed the lady was uneasy, and, in an abundance of caution, decided to postpone the sale.

I would call the shop, and ask for a better explanation before making a judgement. It might indeed be a straw-purchase concern, I dunno...

If you decide the clerk was on the level, perhaps some more training is called for so that your wife is more confident handling the weapon.

If he seems disingenuous, take your business elsewhere.

 

[gyvel]

If you decide the clerk was on the level

According to the OP, the "clerk" was the owner.

Personally, if I were treated that way I wouldn't go back.

 

[peggysue]

There are other gun stores. Go else where or buy on line like on Budsguns.com and have them ship it to another FFL near by. Then go on line and post your complaint on YELP about the guns store.

 

[Nathan]

Is it normal for a gun shop to refuse to sell a gun to someone who's not familiar with firearms or how to handle them? Isn't that what a CPL class is for? Isn't that what husband supervision is for?

If one is to always assume a gun is loaded, how is it possible to clean the gun? I would never clean a gun I assumed was loaded would you? Seems silly in this respect.

First, my biggest struggle is I feel like you don't know why you weren't sold the gun. If it was for pointing at other people, something grievous must have occurred like pointing the gun at him or you and pulling the trigger. For him or you to not immediately correct that situation is ridiculous.

A CPL class is typically a minimal training effort with too many topics to be considered much training at all. She need a NRA basic class and then a basic CCW tactics class with 300 rounds or so of supervised shooting. That is the school way to learn solid handling skills.

The "treat every gun as it is always loaded" rule is about your assumption when you see a gun. The idea is, until you've checked it, it's loaded and you still obey the other rules when handling a confirmed unloaded gun. Now, you still have administrative handling like cleaning, inspecting the crown, etc. these are done by locking the action open or immediately taking it down after checking to see it is unloaded. This rule never allows releasing the sear pointed at another person.


The real reason.....well, I have 2 guesses. First, at 5:50P, most people are wanting to hit the road. He is probably sure he can handle his explanation well enough to not upset you off and get you back in while saving face. Maybe it was his anniversary. Since we live in a free America where buying a gun takes 10 times as long as buying a hammer, this happens.

Second, he maybe concerned about the straw deal thing. Nobody likes to talk to 2 people about a gun, and then sell it to the less interested party. It stinks of a straw deal and you don't have enough paperwork to prove the whole story out. If you return, he knows you are a real customer. If you don't, you look like ATF secret shoppers. You might try returning mid shift with her taking the lead on the gun purchase.

Third, he could just be ignorant. You might try a quick phone call to prove it out. There are gun stores I avoid due to the ignorance factor. Frankly, you may never know the real reason and it may not matter.

 

[idek]

I imagine it would feel a bit uncomfortable to be in that situation, but I don't know if I'd automatically go somewhere else.

You said he spent 45 minutes answering questions and letting you handle 4 or 5 guns... and he didn't get any money out of it. To me, this doesn't sound like a bad guy (unless he was rude throughout the process).

I might have missed it, but did you say whether the gun was going to be purchased under your name or your wife's? If you were buying under your name, but it was clear that it was for her, I suspect that might have been the issue (as others have mentioned).

If I were in your your situation, I might call or stop back in to try and get more clarification. And not that it's necessarily his business, but if safety concerns really were the problem, you might inform him that your wife would be taking classes, and she'd like to have the gun to use in the classes.

 

[turkeestalker]

Never once since the instant back ground check was required, have I had to wait any length of time for a 'proceed' response when purchasing a firearm. Be it over the phone or via the internet, it has always been just a few to five minute kind of thing.

That is until the last two times. The last one took close to an hour, the second to last took just over an hour, both times the consensus was that it was probably just a volume of calls kind of thing. The fourth to last time on the Friday before Veterans Day, the call was place for myself and another customer, and the hold time was over a half an hour just waiting to speak to an individual specifically because of the volume of calls.

Obviously I can only speculate, but at 10 minutes until closing on a Friday evening and the recent record numbers of those calls being made in past months, I could see not wishing to endeavor on the part of the shop owner. That said, if in fact that were the case, the owner should have been honest with you about it. Hard to fault a guy wanting to get off work on time at the end of a long work week. If that was not the case, and the owner was being sincere in his claim as to the reasoning for his decision, then he handled it poorly.

Either way I'm with gyvel, I wouldn't go back.

 

[Tom Servo]

First off, you reacted in an unusually civil and patient manner. Many people would have been less polite.

As far as his reasons, we can only speculate. When I was in the business, if I'd rejected every sale in which the prospective buyer muzzled someone, I wouldn't have made many sales. Heck, that's an obvious opportunity to sell someone a class.

If he turned you away on those grounds, he's not going to be in business long.

Did he suspect a straw purchase? Perhaps, but that could have been cleared up by observing your behavior and asking a question or two. Even if the gun was for your wife and you were paying for it, that's legal. The only red flag would have been if one of the parties refused to do the paperwork. Your situation doesn't fit that bill.

So yeah, I'm not sure what got into the guy's craw. It doesn't sound like you were doing anything suspect. I'd take my business elsewhere.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

If he was the owner and truly refused the sale b/c the unsafe handling, I have to give him a lot of respect for that choice. I have been in shops and wanted to ask clerks to take guns back from people who were handling them. Probably half the times I go to shops, actually.

If one is to always assume a gun is loaded, how is it possible to clean the gun?

This has already been responded to, but I'll add I treat the gun as loaded as long as it is still assembled. I'm not careless until the slide is off, the bolt removed, or the breech plug is sitting on the table.

Probably 550 is bad timing.
Any time two people show up it throws flags for a straw buy, especially if she isn't interested enough to care about the rejection.

If she only has a couple dozen rounds down range and you own a firearm she could use to qualify, why are you buying her a gun now anyways? I would wait.
My wife's first training was NRA First steps and the instructor provided a .22. My wife used my Glock 26 for her CHL class. Once she had that basic training and experience, from someone else who was an "expert" I took her to a range with rentals. That may not be the best method, but I think a gun before the class is premature.

 

[MurBob]

First, my biggest struggle is I feel like you don't know why you weren't sold the gun. If it was for pointing at other people, something grievous must have occurred like pointing the gun at him or you and pulling the trigger. For him or you to not immediately correct that situation is ridiculous.

My wife would never "point and pretend" in such a way. The clerk never indicated any concern during out time there and never corrected or gave any indication of any inappropriate behavior.

I would like to thank you, and all the other posters, for providing some very useful insight into what happened and/or what should have happened.

It would seem that my thoughts on the situation were not far off.

You said he spent 45 minutes answering questions and letting you handle 4 or 5 guns... and he didn't get any money out of it. To me, this doesn't sound like a bad guy (unless he was rude throughout the process).

I might have missed it, but did you say whether the gun was going to be purchased under your name or your wife's? If you were buying under your name, but it was clear that it was for her, I suspect that might have been the issue (as others have mentioned).

The store clerk did answer all our questions but it seems to me that I had to drag the answers out of him. Of course, many of the questions I was asking required subjective answers, he was very clear when asked something of an objective nature. I did not sense any rudeness from him, but on the other side of the coin, he wasn't enthusiastic either. (I'm thinking an enthusiastic gun seller is probably a bad thing so I can understand that)

Yes, I did tell him the gun was for my wife and that she was going to take a CPL class so she could carry it. There could be no mistake that the gun was going to be hers. My only contact with the weapons was to check quality, function, and clear it before giving it to my wife.. I had it for 15 seconds, she would play with it for 10 minutes.. sort-to-speak.

Did he suspect a straw purchase? Perhaps, but that could have been cleared up by observing your behavior and asking a question or two. Even if the gun was for your wife and you were paying for it, that's legal. The only red flag would have been if one of the parties refused to do the paperwork. Your situation doesn't fit that bill.

So yeah, I'm not sure what got into the guy's craw. It doesn't sound like you were doing anything suspect. I'd take my business elsewhere.

He never asked to run either of our backgrounds.. never even got a chance to fill out the paperwork. I would have been happy to let him run both of us and wouldn't have even questioned it.

You know, I didn't mention it because its sort of irrelevant, but when we were leaving the house to go to the store, I had originally put $1000 in my wallet, but on the way out, I got to thinking that they might get suspicious if I pull out a wad of cash like that.. So I thought, I'll use the credit card instead and then I get points and miles too! (plus the purchase protection the card gives) LOL.. ya.. sometimes its the little things...


Thank you to everyone for your input. You folks have been a great help in educating me on what is and isn't normal.

 

[Tom Servo]

I got to thinking that they might get suspicious if I pull out a wad of cash like that.

Suspicious? Heck, I'd be happy I wasn't paying credit card fees on the sale.

From what you've told us, you just got a guy who didn't want to make the sale. There are other gun shops around.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

I would have been happy to let him run both of us and wouldn't have even questioned it.

Although running both backgrounds is often mentioned, I don't think a dealer is permitted to do so.