Open Bolt & Closed Bolt - Please explain

Rich Miranda

New member
OK, I am a regular poster in the Handgun forum. Many of you 'know' me. But I am a handgun guy, not a rifle guy - yet. Someday I will be but I have no storage place for long guns right now.

But I have an embarrassing question. Even more embarrassing than when I was 7 and watching my dad fill out a survey form and I asked him, "What's a les-bi-an?" in front of the female surveyor.

What does closed bolt and open bolt mean, and what is the significance?


I read gun mags and whatnot but they never define the terms, they just use them. They say things like, "It's a closed bolt so as not to anger BATFE" and so forth, but since I don't know what it means anyway, it mostly just doesn't make sense to me.

Please know that I'm swallowing my pride by asking like this. :eek: But if I know TFLers, I'll get lots of great information without being made to feel like an idiot. I hope. :)
 

zoomie

New member
Since we're probably the only two guys awake at 3:30 in the morning, I'll give it a stab.

Open bolt: The bolt is open when ready to fire. Pulling the trigger slams the bolt forward, with the firing pin, and fires the round. They're now all Class III.

Closed bolt: The bolt is closed when ready to fire. Pulling the trigger moves the firing pin only, firing the round. It's what we're all used to.
 

Snuffy308

New member
And with a FA open bolt gun when a firing sequence is ended the bolt is locked open and a round is not chambered, thus negating any chance of a cook off if the barrel is really hot from FA fire.
 

Tucker 1371

New member
They're now all Class III.

My understanding of this is a little spotty as well, it's possible make an open bolt semi-auto right? What is BATFE's problem with an SA open bolt? Does anyone currently make any open bolt guns or are they considered machineguns off the bat?
 

Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
In an open-bolt gun, the firing pin protrudes from the face of the bolt. All that's needed is a simple trigger/sear arrangement. Pull the trigger and the recoil spring drives the bolt forward. Cycling the action is by what's known as "blowback", the rearward reaction of the cartridge case brought about by the gas pressure in the barrel.

In a closed-bolt gun, the firing pin does not protrude. It is spring actuated and only travels forward to ignite the primer after the system is "locked and cocked" and then the trigger is pulled.
 

zoomie

New member
What is BATFE's problem with an SA open bolt? Does anyone currently make any open bolt guns or are they considered machineguns off the bat?
They're machine guns off the bat. Something about open bolt guns are too easy to make into full auto, so they ruled in 1982 or sometime that all open bolt guns are Class III. I don't understand the engineering of it. Open bolt guns owned prior were grandfathered, so you can find Mac 10s and such around, but can't get a new one.
 

Scorch

New member
In an open-bolt gun, the firing pin protrudes from the face of the bolt.
Not all open-bolt guns are slam-fire guns. Some have firing pins that are not fixed and fire after the bolt closes fully and goes into battery (think MG42). Many are slam-fired (pistol cartridge models), meaning they have a fixed firing pin in the center of the bolt and fire as the bolt slams home (think Sten).

Cycling the action is by what's known as "blowback", the rearward reaction of the cartridge case brought about by the gas pressure in the barrel
Again, not all open-bolt guns are blowback, many are recoil-operated (MG42), many are gas-operated (WW2 BAR).

They're machine guns off the bat.
No. BATFE defines a machine gun as a firearm that discharges more than one round per pull of the trigger. There are many semi-auto open-bolt guns in the world. The problem with open-bolt semi-autos is that they are usually easy to convert to full auto, so the BATF banned them. Winchester even made a single-shot open-bolt semi-auto 22LR in the 1960s, but the BATF frowned on the design and Winchester quit making the rifles.
 

zoomie

New member
No. BATFE defines a machine gun as a firearm that discharges more than one round per pull of the trigger.
Good job. They're treated just like machineguns by the BATF, right off the bat.
 

Tucker 1371

New member
Good job. They're treated just like machineguns by the BATF, right off the bat.

That's silly, they've made a law that already makes it a felony to modify a semi auto firearm to fire full auto, why not just let that cover open bolt guns? I hate how BATFE just loves to exercise authority simply because think they can.
 

carguychris

New member
This is an explanation culled from an earlier post of mine.
Easy. If the bolt starts out in the forward position when the trigger is pulled, it's closed bolt. If the bolt starts out in the reaward position and moves forward when the trigger is pulled, it's open-bolt.

Open bolt blowback firing sequence:

1) pull trigger, 2) bolt goes forward under spring pressure, 3) bolt strips fresh round from magazine, 4) bolt pushes round into battery, 5) firing pin strikes primer, 6) BANG, 7) recoil pushes bolt back into rearward position and extracts empty case.

Closed bolt blowback firing sequence:

1) pull trigger, 2) firing pin strikes primer, 3) BANG, 4) recoil pushes bolt back into rearward position and extracts empty case, 5) bolt goes forward under spring pressure, 6) bolt strips fresh round from magazine, 7) bolt pushes round into battery.

Most purpose-built SMGs and MGs are open-bolt because the trigger mechanism is simpler; the mechanism "wants" to keep cycling until the mag is empty or something stops it. Also, since the bolt only contacts the unfired round for a fraction of a second, the rounds are less likely to spontaneously fire or "cook off" if the bolt gets really hot. OTOH the vast majority of US-legal semi-auto firearms are closed-bolt, since they're inherently more difficult to convert to full-auto and therefore more BATFE-friendly.
Here's another way to put it:

In an open-bolt gun, the trigger restrains the bolt. In a closed-bolt gun, the trigger restrains the firing pin.
 

Old Grump

Member in memoriam
Please know that I'm swallowing my pride by asking like this. But if I know TFLers, I'll get lots of great information without being made to feel like an idiot. I hope.
Only stupid question is the one not asked, no need for embarrassment. A lot of regular posters would not have been able to answer that question.
 

LukeA

New member
Also, closed bolt guns tend to offer better accuracy because they have shorter lock-time and they move less mass around inside the gun prior to firing, compared to open-bolt guns.
 

benEzra

New member
My understanding of this is a little spotty as well, it's possible make an open bolt semi-auto right? What is BATFE's problem with an SA open bolt? Does anyone currently make any open bolt guns or are they considered machineguns off the bat?
The BATFE rules them to be machineguns for the purposes of the National Firearms Act, even if they are functionally only semiauto, because they are much more easily converted to full auto than closed-bolt semiautos are.

BATFE defines a machine gun as a firearm that discharges more than one round per pull of the trigger.
...OR a gun that can be readily converted or restored to discharge more than one round per pull of the trigger.

That's where open-bolt semiautos fall under the NFA---the "readily convertible" part.
 

kiwi56

New member
Open Bolt

The British Sten gun was a prime example of an open bolt gun. I have a 1970's vintage French Gervarm .22long rifle that also fires from an open bolt and was told that a few of those had been converted to go full auto. I had it accidently happen to me up at the range one day when the action screw's loosened off, it gave me the quickest rapid fire on record as well as a red face.
 

Booner B

New member
Thanks for posting this topic. I was actually reading the latest Guns and Ammo last night and read a review on the LWRC International's AR platform series. they mentioned that one variant the offer (M6A4) "is a select-fire model that fires from a closed bolt on semi and an open bolt on full." (G&A, March 2010, p57). I had no idea what they meant, so my question's been answered without me asking it :) I'm more into sporting arms than military/tactical arms so the terminology was new to me as well.
 

AK103K

New member
Aside form the legalities of things, open bolt guns also tend to have some safety issues you dont have with closed bolt guns, and people who are familiar with them.

First and foremost, the open bolt guns look to be in a more or less "safe" condition to those familiar with closed bolt guns, when in fact, they are ready to go. With the closed bolt guns, the open action usually indicates the gun is safe or empty or not in a condition to fire. With the open bolt guns, when the bolt is closed, they are actually "safe". (Before the safety nuts jump in, when I say "safe", I mean more or less "safe", not totally safe. You still need to follow normal safety and handling protocols)

Another issue is loading and unloading the gun, or making it "safe" for carry.

With the closed bolt guns, you simply insert the mag, work the charging handle, and put the safety on.

To unload, drop the mag, open the action and lock the bolt back.

With the open bolt, you have choices. (This is where you really need to pay attention to what you have in your hands and know just how it works before you start putting live rounds in it. There are a lot of different guns out there and many work differently, even those of a similar or same type.)

One, with the bolt closed, you just insert the mag. If the gun has a safety lever or switch (some do, some dont), you can set it, which usually locks the bolt. If it doesnt lock the bolt, or you choose not to lock the bolt, there are other issues. Some of these type guns are not drop safe, some have bolt locking devices, that help, but are no guarantee. If you drop the gun, its very possible that the bolt can move rearward enough to strip a round and fire the gun.

Two, you can insert the mag with the bolt closed, then retract the bolt to a cocked position. If the gun has a safety, you can set it, but it can still be tricky depending on what you have. Many of the basic SMG's, like the MP40, STEN, etc, have a safety "notch" in the frame or tube, which takes the spring load off the trigger and puts it on the charging handle. Thats really the safety when the gun is cocked and not ready for immediate use (well, sort of).

Three, with many open bolt guns, you really need to be very careful when you pull the bolt back. Most have no means to keep the bolt from going forward if your hand should slip, and if it does, the gun is likely to fire when you do. As long as the bolt has cleared the rear of the round on top of the mag, it will strip it off the mag as it goes forward, and at that point, usually has enough momentum to fire the round when it chambers. With any gun you have to make sure you have the weapon pointed in a safe direction when you charge it, but its even more critical with an open bolt. Its also critical you have good trigger discipline. With an open bolt gun, it will run until its empty or you let off the trigger. If your finger is on the trigger when the bolt slips, it probably wont be just one round going out.

Unloading is another issue. You must remove the mag before you lower the bolt. If you dont, the gun will fire. You'd be amazed at how many people dont get this. You'd also be amazed at how many still have their finger on the trigger when they do. While the results may sound comical and like something out of the Three Stooges, its usually a pretty scary event for all involved.

Once you get the gun unloaded, you lower the bolt with the mag out, and then reinsert it, or just leave it empty all together.


Another thing many open bolt guns also have is, pretty light triggers. At least many of the ones I've shot have. Lighter than you'd likely expect anyway. While it does take a little getting used to with the bolt moving before the shot, you can actually get pretty decent accuracy out of them once your used to them.
 
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