Old musket ID

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Buzzcook

New member
As some of you might remember I work at an auction company, Sunsetauction.com.

Recently a cosigner sent us an old musket that he claims is from between 1550 and 1650, with a more modern percussion cap lock added in the 1800s.

We tend to doubt what the guy claims for several reasons. Let's look at the pics.

H5701-L69924355.jpg


http://image.auctionzip.com.global....54CBFE1D6FABCC037F3076D7813F1&cn=AFTOKEN-PROD

http://image.auctionzip.com.global....772FE28F98DEEE718E7D43387E512&cn=AFTOKEN-PROD

Looks like some pics din't show. More below

On edit this isn't an airsoft gun, the orange on the muzzle is a consignment sticker.;)
 
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B

Buzzcook

New member
http://image.auctionzip.com.global....379D4BC2601B97BF3B13D67221896&cn=AFTOKEN-PROD

And this is the last group. For the near future this gun is locked in a case so I don't have access to look for any stamping.
It is also the end of a long day so I'll save my comments on why I think this gun is wrong for later.
But in the mean time if you have any ideas sign in please:)

http://image.auctionzip.com.global....A8C2A3232B363491A10CF865626F6&cn=AFTOKEN-PROD

http://image.auctionzip.com.global....D9D49646DE41A83B2436F6DEF57B5&cn=AFTOKEN-PROD

http://image.auctionzip.com.global....39D3D75C107DD8A31116BB2235A56&cn=AFTOKEN-PROD

http://image.auctionzip.com.global....5CCD4254974567B5BBEB18CA8E9F2&cn=AFTOKEN-PROD
 
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James K

Member In Memoriam
OK, i'll stick my neck out. First, I think it started out as a serious gun, not a reproduction or a joke. But even originally, I think it was made from pieces of other guns. The stock could easily be from the late 1600's; the shape looks correct, as does the shape of the butt plate.

But I think the barrel is later, possibly as late as the mid-19th century, with the trigger guard a bit earlier. The lockplate may be original, it seems to fit into the stock, but it has been modified from a flintlock by welding up holes and making other modifications. The hammer looks crude and is probably contemporaneous with the lockplate work.

The patches (leather?) and the changes are indicative of attempts to keep an old gun firing. That usually means ownership by primitive people for whom obtaining a new(er) gun is either economically or legally impossible.

The overall impression is of a gun made in North Africa or the Middle East for tribes in those areas. But I don't think that is the case. Is it possible, given your location, that it could have been owned by Native Americans, either in the U.S. or Canada?

The problem is that it is in terrible condition and has little, like zero, value in itself. Unless you can establish some solid provenance indicating possession by some historical figure (who??), or some historical association, it is just junk. Interesting junk, and a fertile field for speculation, but still junk.

Jim
 
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Jimro

New member
The rawhide wrapping was pretty common in both the American west and in Africa to bind cracked stocks back together. Wrap the stock in new rawhide, and as it dries it will shrink and bind the wood together tightly.

Sometimes you'll see wire wraps on Lee Enfields around the wrist of the stock to do the same thing.

Basically what that means is that James K is correct, it is junk. Interesting junk to be sure, but not worth actual money.

Jimro
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
I agree that the stock looks to be late 1600s to early 1700s, but the rest of it?

Wow.

Unless there's something really special that I'm missing, I can't see this being worth more than a $200, at very best.
 
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Jim Watson

New member
Looks like it started out as a pretty nice fowling piece, patched up to keep it usable long after its day. As said, resale value is low unless connected to a famous owner.
 
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Buzzcook

New member
The wood and metal are obviously old even at a casual glance.

Were we find problems are the lock fitting so well into the stock, without any signs that either the lock or stock being fitted to each other.

The sling swivels seem off for a 17th century gun. I can't think of slings that early. So they also may have been added later.

The trigger/hand guard looks like some of the early 16th century guns I've seen. The trigger also looks older in style.

The shape of the stock is rightish but it reads more 18th than 17th to me.

I hadn't thought of a new barrel or of Native American influence.

Wouldn't you expect the gun to be more decorated if it was owned by Indians? Also if it was owned by Amerindians then would they have the technological ability to upgrade the guns lock work?

The wrapping looks to be canvas not leather.

BTW any explanation why only the first pic shows?
Thanks for the replies, the more the merrier.
 
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James K

Member In Memoriam
Good points. I don't think it was made as either a musket or fowling piece; octagonal barrels are not usually found on either, mainly on rifles.

True that primitive peoples would not have had the technological know-how to do the conversion, which would have been done before they got it. But a more advanced people would probably have made a new stock rather than patching the old one together.

As I said, plenty of room for speculation, but I think Mike's $200 is too generous; maybe half that as something to hang on the wall.

Jim
 
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RJay

New member
Don't know, looks like the Boston Enfield that Kit Carson carried when he guided the Lewis and Clark ( Larry and Mo, cousins of the other Lewis and Clark ) expedition up the Wazoo river in WWI, so don't know.;)
 
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Scorch

New member
Not to be disagreeable, but to me the trigger guard looks like ones on late 18th or early 19th century guns (like Kentuckys, Hawkens and jaeger rifles). The lock is obviously modified from a flintlock to percussion, and the way the whole thing is patched together reminds me of some of the guns that ranchers and cowboys used to bring me (used hard and repaired in the field with whatever was handy). The only way to know for sure when the rifle was made would be extensive testing of the wood, metal, and rawhide patches. I would say you could spend several thousand in testing to determine the gun is old junk worth a hundred as a wall hanger.
 
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Hawg

New member
I believe it is a converted early fowler, altho a decrepit one. The barrel is half octagonal and half round with a wedding band at the change. The leather braces are rawhide as was already said.
 
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James K

Member In Memoriam
Half round barrels are uncommon (though not unknown) on fowling pieces (aka shotguns). Maybe the OP can tell us if the barrel is rifled; if it is, the type of rifling could help identify at least the barrel.

Like I said, endless speculation, no value.

Jim
 
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Buzzcook

New member
The consignor did claim it was a rifle. I'll check it out this evening if my boss hasn't already.

I'm not going to guess on value. We'll find that out after the auction. The reason for my post is our reputation. We can't advertise something as what its not.
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
I think if you were to advertise it as a "distressed piece of sewer pipe lashed to a billet of wood with animal skin" you'd be pretty well covered...
 
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Buzzcook

New member
Thanks Mike I'll give the auctioneer you idea.

No rifling and roughly .75 caliber.

I'll have my boss read this thread and make up his mind on the description.

Probably something like early colonial era flintlock, converted to percussion in 1800s. Not safe to shoot.
 
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James K

Member In Memoriam
Possibly given by Miles Standish to Squanto in gratitude for his agricultural assistance. Possibly worth two million dollars. Note I said, "possibly".

Jim
 
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