OK to pack heat at U., says Utah's high court

[Don H]

OK to pack heat at U., says Utah's high court
By Pamela Manson
The Salt Lake Tribune




Posted: 1:54 PM- The state Supreme Court ruled Friday that the University of Utah has no right to ban guns on campus, rejecting the argument that prohibiting firearms is part of the school's power to control academic affairs.

Writing for the 4-1 majority, Justice Jill Parrish said case law "is incompatible with the University's position." "We simply cannot agree with the proposition that the Utah Constitution restricts the legislature's ability to enact firearms laws pertaining to the University," Parrish wrote.

The issue of whether the state constitution allows schools to set their own firearm policies heated up in 2002 when the U. filed a lawsuit seeking to uphold its longtime policy of banning guns on campus. Based on state law at the time, 3rd District Judge Robert Hilder ruled in 2003 that the gun ban was legal. The state then appealed to the Supreme Court.

Soon after that, state lawmakers passed a bill in 2004 to overturn Hilder's decision that said only the Legislature can set gun policy. U. trustees voted unanimously soon after to maintain its policy prohibiting students, faculty and staff from bringing guns onto campus.

The Attorney General's Office argued that the university has no power or autonomy under the Utah Constitution to ignore state law.

The U., while acknowledging that the Legislature has general control and budgetary supervision over the school, insisted that it is an autonomous entity that can disregard a law that inteferes with internal academic affairs.
The state Supreme Court majority disagreed.

"Indeed, the University's claim is unsupported by the text of our state's constitution, its historical context, or the prior decisions of this court," the ruling says.

In a dissent, Chief Justice Christine Durham said the framers of the Utah Constitution "intended to secure the University's 'protection and defense' by perpetuating its autonomous control over internal academic affairs." She also wrote, "Applying, as they do, only to University employees and students, and only while these individuals are on the University campus, these policies merely reflect the University's judgment on an issue that is within the scope of its academic expertise - namely, the appropriate means by which to maintain an educational environment in its classrooms and on its campus." U. officials planned a press conference this afternoon to discuss the court ruling.

pmanson@sltrib.com


http://www.sltrib.com/ci_4307062

 

[Don H]

U takes it to federal court:

Supreme Court Says University of Utah Can't Ban Guns
September 8th, 2006 @ 4:09pm
Richard Piatt Reporting

The Utah Supreme Court says concealed weapons are allowed on the University of Utah campus. For years, the U has enforced its own policy, banning all weapons, but that policy was contrary to state law.

Even with this ruling---which took more than two years---the University of Utah's President says concealed weapons will still be banned from campus. That is until a federal court case is resolved on this issue.

Still, this Utah Supreme Court ruling is significant. It says that people who have a concealed weapon permit are allowed to carry their weapon at the U, just as they can everywhere else in the state. The University has long insisted guns on campus were contrary to a healthy learning environment, but the Legislators say state law is state law, no matter where you are.

Today the Attorney General says the Supreme Court agrees.

Mark Shurtleff, Utah Attorney General: "Although people have long thought this case was about guns, it's really about the rule of law, and who sets the law and who has to obey the law. And the message this decision says today is no one is above the law."

Michael Young, President, University of Utah: "Our belief is that it is incumbent on us to keep students as safe as possible, where free and open dialogue can occur, without threat of physical harm of any sort."

From here, the case will go back to Federal Court. In 2004, Judge Dale Kimball said he would not consider the U of U gun ban case until after the state courts have ruled. Now that federal case can move forward.

To the U that means the case is unresolved. The U President says guns will still be banned on campus.

The issue of gun owners' rights is an emotional issue. It's been hidden under the surface in Utah for a while. This ruling now brings it back to the limelight.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=478103

 

[Al Norris]

I've been following this, but only peripherally. What is the federal issue that the university wants taken up?

 

[azurefly]

U. trustees voted unanimously soon after to maintain its policy prohibiting students, faculty and staff from bringing guns onto campus.

Clearly, they wanted the next university shooting spree to go unopposed by anyone equipped to end it with a minimal loss of life.


"Victim Disarmament Zones"
"Criminal Protection Zones"

Why are supposed academics SO FREAKIN' STUPID when it comes to seeing that unarmed victims are EASY victims, and that no safety is gained by making sure would-be victims lack the means to effectively resist a violent attack?

These are smart people?!

They have gone fighting tooth-and-nail, in court after court, to make sure people are defenseless. How dare they refer to themselves as "educated"?!

-azurefly

 

[azurefly]

Michael Young, President, University of Utah: "Our belief is that it is incumbent on us to keep students as safe as possible, where free and open dialogue can occur, without threat of physical harm of any sort."

If anyone did something to threaten physical harm "of any sort" to someone who was trying to engage in free and open dialogue, aren't there laws that already forbid them from doing so? Doesn't matter whether he uses a fist, a bat, a knife, or a gun. Existing laws are broken when someone threatens another person without justification.

A gun ban won't keep anyone safer, because anyone who would threaten or kill will also be completely willing to bring a gun onto the campus despite it being against the rules or the law.

Once again, the ignorance of the intellectual elite is on parade.


-azurefly

 

[jrklaus]

Antipitas...

So far, all I have found is this:

"# Back in November 2001, Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff issued a formal opinion that a University policy restricting firearms violated state law.
# In March 2002, the University filed a lawsuit in US District Court.
# One year later, Federal Judge Dale Kimball abstained from hearing the case, until the issues are resolved in state court."

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=478103 was the link.

I'd be curious to know what the national/federal issue is, too.



The only information I found by searching for Judge Kimball thus far is a state district court decision prior to the current UT Supreme Court decision:

http://unews.utah.edu/p/?r=031306-2

Evidently the University asserts some type of First Amendment claim (to violate the Second?)?

 

[Don H]

As I recall, the U. contends that USSC decisions regarding academic freedom allows the U. to ban guns to foster the free exchange of ideas in an academic setting. The federal judge hearing the case wanted the state suit to play out before hearing the issue.

 

[rhino]

The University is wrong and hopefully this will go all the way to the top and confirm it.

Obviously the Utah Supreme Court is a wise group of judges. They made a good decision.

Utah law makers are pretty good on gun rights too. The Utah carry license is one of the few that is not specifically invalid on school grounds, which is a very good thing. More states (like mine) should follow their very positive lead.

 

[azurefly]

academic freedom allows the U. to ban guns to foster the free exchange of ideas in an academic setting

This is exactly where I take issue with the U.'s position:

Are they really saying that illegal gun use among academics at the university threatens to chill the free exchange of ideas -- that academics are afraid to voice their views for fear that fellow academics will whip out their shootin' irons over their words?

Has this been a problem?

The only times I recall having seen guns be a problem on university campuses, it was because some crazy dude came out there shooting people because of some whacko grudge or whatever. And a rule against LEGAL carry and use of guns on the campus wouldn't have done a damned thing to prevent it.


-azurefly

 

[azurefly]

The University is wrong and hopefully this will go all the way to the top and confirm it.

The university is wrong, but not for the right reasons (so to speak).

We are making the mistake of allowing the policy to be debated on the basis of whether the university, or the state of Utah, is entitled to make gun-possession law.

What we should be debating is the notion that this kind of anti-gun rule on university campuses is at all capable of creating safety.

The debate as it is being conducted is merely a distraction from the true issue, which is the sensibility of attempting to make people safer by requiring that they be disarmed, and the attendant doublethink that allows people to believe that bad guys will ever be stopped by posted rules.


-azurefly

 

[Don H]

In this instance, the gun issue is incidental. What is really being debated is whether the University can tell the Legislature to go pound sand at will. This has been in the making for some time and if it wasn't guns, it would have been something else that brought us to this point.

If you think about it, the University is using the concept of "academic freedom" much like the federal government uses the commerce clause - it essentially covers everything under the sun. The University is using this issue in it's bid to become a fully autonomous, taxpayer-funded institution with absolutely no state oversight. That is what this is about.

 

[jrklaus]

"The University is using this issue in it's bid to become a fully autonomous, taxpayer-funded institution with absolutely no state oversight. That is what this is about."--DonH

I expect that is it in a nutshell...well said!

 

[S.Miller]

Why are supposed academics SO FREAKIN' STUPID

As someone who works on a university campus let me address that. Firstly, I'll assume my college isn't out of the ordinary. Secondly, if I walk through academic buildings and view the office doors and windows of faculty members, graduate students and such, I will find (and indeed have found) that the vast majority of them are obviously politically liberal. Anti-Bush and anti-GOP sentiments abound. If these people are typically liberal then they are anti-gun as well. Likely because of that, I can tell you that the university where I work would be terrified to think that students, staff or visitors to campus would be armed. If you knew what we had to go through simply to be armed with hollow point bullets you'd roll your eyes. Academia is book smart, but possesses little common sense.

 

[Al Norris]

After doing a bit of looking, I found the relevant information here.

¶7 In response, the University sued the Attorney General in the United States District Court for the District of Utah (“federal court”), seeking a declaration that Utah law does not prevent it from enforcing its firearms policy and that any interference with the policy would violate its right to academic freedom as guaranteed by the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution.

...

¶55 Finally, we reiterate that the University’s claims based on the right to academic freedom under the First and Fourteenth Amendments of the United States Constitution are not before us. The federal district court has retained jurisdiction over these claims. With the University’s state law claims resolved, the parties are free to return to federal court for resolution of the University’s federal law claims.

As to how this may resolve in Federal Court, is anyone guess. I am not conversant with the cited federal case, R.R. Comm’n v. Pullman Co., 312 U.S. 496 (1941), so I can't offer an opinion either way.

Don, after a thorough reading of the Utah Supreme Court opinion, I believe you are correct. The University wants complete autonomy without taxpayer oversight.

 

[Don H]

Update

U of U Temporarily Lifts Ban on Concealed Weapons
September 18th, 2006 @ 9:33pm
SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- The University of Utah said Monday it will temporarily suspend enforcing the school's gun ban and hopes to work out an agreement with lawmakers to keep weapons off campus and still comply with state law.

University President Michael K. Young sent an e-mail to faculty, staff and students saying the school will ask for a stay in its federal court case to keep guns off campus. School officials will meet with state leaders, hoping to reach a compromise on the state law that was upheld by the Utah Supreme Court.

"I'm very appreciative that they decided to go that route," Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff said Monday night from Washington, D.C., where he was attending a meeting.

Shurtleff hopes the university and state lawmakers can come up with a resolution and keep the matter from further court wrangling. The case has gone on for four years and could go longer if a resolution can't be reached.

"This allows them some time to go to the Legislature and see if they can get some changes in state law to satisfy some of their concerns," Shurtleff said. "If they feel like they haven't had satisfaction, this gives them the opportunity to pursue the matter further in federal court."

The Utah Supreme Court ruled Sept. 8 that the weapons ban runs counter to Utah law, which prevents state and local agencies from restricting possession or use of firearms on public or private property.

The university sued Shurtleff, first in U.S. District Court in 2002 and then in 3rd District Court in 2003, after he said the law applied to the school. The federal court told the university to get the state issues resolved in 3rd District Court first and then return to federal court.

With last week's state decision, Young said the school will hold off on pursuing further federal action while trying to work out an agreement with the state.

"We have agreed, with the Attorney General's office, to suspend temporarily enforcement of our policy regarding firearms on campus and modify our practices to comply with state law," Young said in the e-mail.

State law prohibits firearms on school property, unless the weapon holder has a permit.

The Legislature amended the law in 2004 to specifically include "state institutions of higher learning," among other things.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=501263

 

[Epyon]

To azurefly...

Why are supposed academics SO FREAKIN' STUPID when it comes to seeing that unarmed victims are EASY victims, and that no safety is gained by making sure would-be victims lack the means to effectively resist a violent attack?

Hey hey now... a lot of my friends in college are gun supporters like me, and we don't fit the sterotypical "gun loving conservative" either.


Epyon