Ok, legality question(folding stocks)

[dfaugh]

this has probably been asked many times, and I've asked it on other boards, but I have YET to get a definitive answer....

This is as much a curiosity thing as anything else...So...

I think an SKS with a folding stock would be just about the "coolest" trunk gun...However, my understanding is that it would (now) be illegal to buy, say, a Yugo SKS and equip it with a folding stock...I just haven't seen anything that proves this is illegal.... All the AW legal stuff that I see people quote, only deals with guns with detachable magazines...In this case I'm talking about an SKS with the standard 10 round "fixed" magazine, and NO other "evil features"..only a folding stock..and, of course, of legal overall length and such... So where does it say this is illegal?

Not a big deal if I couldn't have one, as I have other legal guns that are pretty much just as suitable (folding stock Mossberg pump and Hi-Point Carbine) for SD anyway...Again, I'm mostly curious as I've not found the correct references, anywhere

 

[sleeping dog]

For a really "definitive" answer, write to the ATF and ask them.

Regards.

 

[Tamara]

It would have a folding stock and pistol grip. Both of which are no-nos on imported semiauto weapons.

I think the technical infraction would be that you are "creating a prohibited weapon".

 

[Sodbuster]

A legal version SKS folder may be available at

http://www.gunsamerica.com/searches/PZMqX38AAAEAAFyNcOs-1.htm

Caveat emptor as far as buying. You may need to search the ATF website to satisfy your thirst for the truth. It's extremely tedious reading... just listen to Tam.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I think Tamara's right on this... the problem isn't the 1994 AW Ban, it is that you would be creating an imported weapon that the ATF would have declined to allow you to import.

http://www.ccrkba.org/pub/rkba/mirror/flubber/Documents/sks-info.txt

For example, the regulation will allow for the replacement of a broken stock or pistol grip on a damaged semiautomatic AK-47 which was legally imported into or legally assembled in the United States. Further, a defective fixed shoulder stock of an SKS type rifle which was lawfully imported as a sporting firearm could lawfully be replaced with a fixed shoulder stock. On the other hand, the shoulder stock could not be replaced with a folding stock since the assembly of the SKS rifle with a folding stock would result in a firearm which would be nonimportable.

 

[Gewehr98]

I'm not so sure about that SKS on GunsAmerica.

He doesn't really go out of his way to list why it's in a legal configuration, does he?

Definitely caveat emptor.

 

[Sodbuster]

Agreed, G98. When I said "may" I was referring to its legality, but it reads like I meant its availability. Caveat in big CAPS is warranted.

 

[Onslaught]

Aside from the "import ban" that was in effect prior to the 1994 "Assault Weapons" ban (which in itself was nearly identical to our infamous AW ban, but only for imports) , the '94 AW ban also applies as follows.

Any rifle not classified as an "assault weapon" prior to the 1994 AW ban cannot be converted into an assault weapon after the ban.

That's why it's amusing when someone sells a "pre-ban" Ruger mini-14 in standard configuration. You can't LEGALLY put a pistol grip and folding stock on a Ranch Rifle manufactured in 1992 unless it had one on it WHEN the ban went into effect.

Heck, with the import ban, you can't even put a NON-folding pistol gripped stock on an SKS or AK without meeting some RIDICULOUS criteria of "x number of US made parts" on it. You CAN, however, put a non-folding pistol gripped stock on ANY Mini-14, pre or post ban, because only the '94 crap applies, with the "2 evil features" and all that.

P.S. - Guess who signed the Import Ban into law??? G.W. Senior.

 

[MAKOwner]

I see people mention SKS's that supposedly had folding stocks on before '94. Apparently thats legal. I still have some qualms about what the 89 import ban and 922(r) crap mean there. I used to have one on my SKS back then, I can't remember if there was a loophole in the 89 crap for that... They're actually pretty low quality stocks anyway, the ultimate "SKS pimp" setup.

If it turns out pre-94 equipped is ok, just buy a used chinese SKS and throw a folding stock on it anyway. No one will know, or can tell if it was like that before '94 or not (other than you and the seller...)

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I see people mention SKS's that supposedly had folding stocks on before '94.

Not quite. As Bartholomew points out, an SKS cannot have a folding stock installed after 11-30-90 when this reinterpretation of "sporting firearms" became official. All SKS's with folding stocks prior to this were grandfathered in. If you had one on your SKS prior to this, you can replace it with a new one. However, even if your gun was in the US before this date, you cannot now add a folding stock as this creates a firearm that cannot be legally imported.

If you think this folding stock issue can be ignored, there is another thread floating around here where a dealer put folding stocks on two 10/22's and got caught. He lost his FFL and was fined $500,000.

ATF also noticed that some smart folks were merely importing the parts and assembling the guns in the US. They decided that there are 20 major parts to a given semi-automatic military firearm and ruled that if the gun as assembled using 11 or more imported parts, it would be considered as an imported illegal firearm. At least half of the 20 parts must be manufactured in the US to keep it legal.

 

[dfaugh]

Well, OK

This is what I mean: So, if by adding a folding stock it becomes illegal as it couldn't be imported that way, where does it say what can and cannot be imported?

Also sounds like the addition/replacement of enough of the correct parts, with U.S. made parts, would make it legal. is that correct?

Boy is this a murky subject (guess that shows how screwed up some of these laws are!)

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Here's the story......

Waaaaay back in 1989, the democrats were pushing an assault weapon ban. Bush the 1st still had one more election to deal with, so he didn't want to totally PO the gun lobby. So he did what any good politician does, he tried to ride the middle of the road.

He ordered ATF to re-evaluate the imported firearms to determine those that had no "sporting" use. ATF reviewed the "evil" guns and stated they were no longer legal for import in their current configuration. This included the AK series, some of the HK series and an SKS with a bayonet (along with several other series). To be able to continue to import these guns, they had to alter the appearance, which in the case of the SKS was the removal of the bayonet.

When manufactures figured out they could still import parts and assemble the guns in the US, ATF jumped all over it. So for companies to manufacture AK and HK clones and have those still available with folding stocks and pistol grips, they needed to use 1/2 made in USA parts.

The Assault Weapon ban of '94 effectively killed this with their "detachable magazine" and one of the listed evil features as the most any semi-auto rifle could have. It was no longer legal to make domestic AKs with folding stocks and pistol grips.

As for the SKS, ATF merely issued a ruling that a folding stock on the SKS returned it to the "military" configuration, just as if you put the bayonet back on it. Since there were no SKS clones being manufactured in the US, this effectlvely eliminated installing folding stocks on SKS's.

Now that we have all of that mumbo-jumbo out of the way...let's get even more confused.

At the time all of this occured, it effected all SKS's being imported. Since that time, some SKS's have been added to the C&R list, like the Yugo SKS mentioned. These SKS's CAN have a bayonet attached to them.

As a result, the average person would think that since a Yugo SKS can be imported in a "military" configuration, you should be allowed to put a folding stock on one.

I have absolutely no idea if this is the case. I haven't came across any ATF information taking about that subject. You may want to contact ATF and ask them what their official position is.

 

[benEzra]

Curios and relics

Hkmp5sd said,

>As a result, the average person would think that since a
>Yugo SKS can be imported in a "military" configuration,
>you should be allowed to put a folding stock on one.
>I have absolutely no idea if this is the case. I haven't
>came across any ATF information taking about that
>subject. You may want to contact ATF and ask them
>what their official position is.

Quoting the ATF Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2000_ref.pdf):

27 CFR 178.118: IMPORTATION OF
CERTAIN FIREARMS CLASSIFIED
AS CURIOS OR RELICS
(Also 178.11 and 178.26)

ATF Rul. 85-10
[snip]
". . . Moreover, ATF's classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration. Frames or receivers of curios or relics and surplus military firearms not in their original military configuration were not generally recognized as curios or relics by ATF since they were not of special interest or value as collector's items. Specifically, they did not meet the definition of curio or relic in section 178.11 as firearms of special interest to collectors by reason of a quality other than is ordinarily associated with sporting firearms or offensive or defensive weapons."

I read this as meaning that unless the rifle as issued to the Yugoslavian army came with that particular folding stock, putting a folder on it could make it "no longer in its ORIGINAL military configuration" and kick it out from under the C&R exemption, which would place you in violation of section 922(r).

Is this your take on it?

bE

 

[Hkmp5sd]

benEzra,

I'm not sure. According to the same document:

Firearm Frame or Receiver: That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechlock, and firing mechanism, and which usually threaded at it's forward portion to receive the barrel.

Based on that, the stock is not part of the "frame or receiver."

 

[benEzra]

This is the part that seemed to imply more than just frames or receivers to me:

"Frames or receivers of curios or relics and surplus military firearms not in their original military configuration were not generally recognized as curios or relics by ATF since they were not of special interest or value as collector's items."

I'm not sure if this would actually preclude a folder on a C&R SKS, but it's at least a statement that an agent with an agenda could USE to preclude a folder and bust you for having one, IMO.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Consider this. You can take a Mauser 98K or Enfield Mk1 and install a sporterized fiberglass stock on it, altering it from it's original military configuration. Both of these are imported and on the C&R list as surplus military rifles.

Someday, when I have 8 or so years to waste, I need to attend law school so I can understand this stuff.

 

[Gewehr98]

You're just a wee bit off on that last bit.

Consider this. You can take a Mauser 98K or Enfield Mk1 and install a sporterized fiberglass stock on it, altering it from it's original military configuration. Both of these are imported and on the C&R list as surplus military rifles.

Actually, any FFL holder, including myself, will tell you that a sporterized, or re-stocked Mauser, Enfield, Springfield, Nagant, etc will NOT be eligible for C&R status once it loses it's original military pattern stock. Same goes if that Springfield is rebarreled for something like .270 Winchester. Military bolt-actions that are rebarreled by the original military organizations to .308 are still ok, though. The gun can be imported and sold as a C&R from the FFL dealer, but the second it loses it's military configuration, it has to be sold as a modern weapon.

That sounds silly, I know. Here's where it gets even more silly: I bought a badly sporterized (bubba-ized) No4Mk1 Lee-Enfield at a gun shop, with the intent of restoring it, as I do for many old bolt military guns. Because it's barrel was bobbed and it had a synthetic stock, it was no longer considered a C&R gun. But it was cheap and I wasn't in a rush, so I did the waiting period. As soon as I got it home, it got torn apart, sent off for a new barrel, and a new set of WWII-era military wood was installed to complete the restoration back to it's as-issued condition. When I sold the gun a couple years later, it was fully C&R eligible. Weird, huh?

Depending on how fine-print-savvy the FFL holder is, they may or may not let a sporterized Mauser be sold as a C&R. It's actually a no-no, as per ATF regulations, but by the time an FFL holder has digested and thoroughly understood the intricacies of the written word, he should give up being a Federal Firearm Licensee and take up being a paralegal.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Gewehr98,

I agree. But it is legal to make the changes to a gun already on the C&R list. So, would it not also be legal for the end user to take his Yugo SKS and install a folding stock? It is already classified as a non-sporting rifle and he is not creating an assault weapon.

The problem with putting one on a new manufactured SKS is that it does not have a bayonet so that it can be imported as a sporting rifle. Putting a folding stock on it would turn it into what ATF considers a non-sporting rifle.

 

[Gewehr98]

Oh, I agree, you can indeed buy a C&R rifle...

And then sporterize it to your heart's content. It makes my stomach turn to see it done, but it's legal, to a point. And unless the gun is returned to it's original configuration, it loses it's C&R status.

The problem with buying a Yugo or Russian C&R SKS is that the gun wasn't configured as a folding-stock rifle to begin with, and your modification to add a folding stock does indeed create a gun that's not importable under current law, even if it's C&R status allowed it to be imported with the bayonet lug and bayonet. If the gun wasn't legal as a folder before enactment of the law, it isn't now. Since the ATF granted the import licenses for the C&R Russian and Yugo SKS rifles, they know exactly when, and by what batch of serial numbers, the rifles came into country, not to mention the FFL holder's bound book, just like mine, which has dates and all the other pertinent info.

If you build or modify one to add a folding stock and the gun's legality is questioned, the burden of proof is gonna be on the owner when the case goes before the judge. Something more ominous is seen fairly often - those folks who have pre-ban AR-15 lower receivers, and want to build a pre-ban configured AR-15 with bayo lug and flash hider. Unless they can prove without a shadow of a doubt that the gun was configured as a complete pre-ban rifle prior to September of 1994, they've got an illegal gun. In this case, the serial number of the lower receiver doesn't necessarily help them.

As a FFL holder, I sit up many nights before bed and try to understand all the rules and newsletters the ATF sends me. As a range officer, I see all sorts of illegally-configured SKS and AK variants, owned by some of the nicest people, who probably don't even know any better. Is it a sin of omission that I don't tell the nice old man that his late-model Chinese SKS can't have the bayonet and Choate side-folder attached? Or am I just minding my own business? I do the latter, because even the local cops at my range show up with the same kind of stuff. Sad state of affairs.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I consider it a sin to alter a C&R rifle, regardless of what the ATF says. It's enough to bring tears to your eyes when you come across a 100 year old mauser and someone has sporterized it.

I didn't know that a sporterized rifle was no longer a C&R. I've bought many rifles on my C&R, but since I hate anything not in original configuration, I've never tried to buy a sporterized one.

Guess the bottom line is that dfaugh cannot put a folder on any SKS he can buy. He could track down a pre-ban model with documentation showing that the folder has been installed prior to 1990. But, that simply isn't worth the cost for a mere SKS.