Odd Job's Gunshot Thread

Odd Job

New member
After various threads along the lines of "This guy was hit x times with y ammo of z calibre and he still didn't die" I have decided to tell you all what my perspective is on gunshot wounds and shot placement. To begin with let's go over what we are told by all the experts as regards neutralising a threat by means of gunfire:

1) It is accepted that there are certain 'critical' organs and structures within the human body which, if significantly damaged, will lead to the neutralisation of that individual's ability to pose a threat.
2) It is also accepted that if we intend to damage those structures we must deliver a projectile that has the ability to penetrate deeply enough into the target to reach and damage those critical organs and structures.
3) Lastly we must have some exterior landmark to aim at, which will correspond to the position of the critical organ that we are aiming to damage.

And these three points are very difficult to satisfy in real-world shootings because of the variables involved.

To illustrate this, let us pretend that every bad guy we ever encounter will always stand with his arms out sideways (as in Figure 1) and that there is a critical rectangular plate of known dimensions within his chest (as in Figure 2, 3 and 4). Let us also pretend that any bullet that can pass through that plate so that it damages any two parallel surfaces of the plate, will result in an instant incapacitation of that man.


Figure1.jpg


Figure2.jpg


Figure3.jpg


Figure4.jpg



If that is the case, then an ideal shot will be in the center of the chest, through the sternum and through the plate, as indicated by the red line trajectories in Figure 5 and 6:


Figure5.jpg


Figure6.jpg



Continued...
 

Odd Job

New member
Of course, we cannot aim directly at that plate at the time of the shooting because we do not have X-ray vision, so we choose an overlying surface landmark instead. If we retain the red trajectory in Figure 6 but this time only mark where it enters the skin, we can make a blue aiming point on the man's chest as in Figure 7:


Figure7.jpg



This blue circle seems to be the ideal aiming point if we want to hit that critical red area within the chest. Okay, so let's assume for now that everybody here can satisfy the following requirements:

1) Hit that blue circle ALL the time, 100% accuracy.
2) Deliver a projectile that cannot be deflected, fragmented or otherwise impeded by the target's tissues. In other words, this will be a projectile that travels in a straight line like a laser beam, no matter what it hits.
3) The projectile has sufficient energy to penetrate the man's chest and perforate the critical red area.

Even if the above points could be satisfied, we would still have variables to do with the position of the shooter relative to the position of the target. There are numerous combinations of these positions whereby even if the above three points are satisfied, the projectile fails to even touch the red critical area. Examples can be seen in Figures 8 to 11:

Figure891011.jpg


Note that in the above trajectories the blue circle has been hit but not the red area within the chest.
Now we must add another variable: the fact that the bad guy doesn't want to stand there with his arms out sideways showing you his chest so you can pick a spot to hit. Have a look at these poses and try to imagine where that blue circle is in all of them. In those cases where you automatically dismiss the blue circle as a valid aiming point, try to work out where you would aim to hit the red area within the target:

Figure1213and14copy.jpg


This is why we get told to aim for center of mass (COM). The reason being that we are likely to hit something of some 'value' even if we don't hit the 'magic red area.' So therefore in the following figures, the COM would be where I have shaded them:

Figure15copy.jpg


Figure16copy.jpg


Note the problem of the target's profile and build. A fat guy or a big-busted woman when standing sideways may appear to be offering quite a large COM, but in reality the critical area available to be struck is less than would be available if they stood facing the shooter. This is how you get COM hits that 'go right through the target' but do not have the required effect, and that's when we get blame put on the weapon/calibre/ammunition type. You only have to spend some time in the emergency room of a large trauma center to see perforating gunshot injuries that have failed to kill or even seriously injure the victim.

Note also that so far we have not even touched on the subject of projectile deflection or fragmentation within the clothing or tissues of the target. A projectile that may have been traveling straight towards the critical area as in Figure 7, may not reach the critical area if it is deflected by the sternum or an anterior rib end. Another thing to remember is that there is no such thing as a nice geometric 'red critical area' as I have drawn here. That was just a convenient way for me to demonstrate the trajectory variables involved. There are substantial variables in the size and position of vital structures such as the heart and great vessels within a person's chest. Further surface variables exist such as muscle content, fat, clothes, bone mineralisation etc. This means that you cannot guarantee that a bad guy will go down even if you are fortunate or skilled enough to place that shot exactly where you intend it to go. Even head shots are not a guarantee to instantly incapacitate somebody.
 

rmagill

New member
Overall, this seems decent (and that a lot of work went into hit). However, you seem to negate the idea of a head shot. For some of these (particularly pic. 14), it seems to be the best way to as quickly as possible neutralize the target would be with a head shot (between eyes, down to the nose), which is not in the "red box", but is even more effective. While it may be "smaller" and "harder to hit, espcecially while moving around", in some cases, this may actually be the easiest way to neutralize the target.

Personally, I would aim a little high of the blue circle (sometimes my shots drop) and, if this is not an option, go for a head shot (leathal force, as any gunshot is, is leathal force and is regardless of the actual outcome. I.e. there is no legal difference (in PA) between shooting comeone COM and in the head if shooting would be justified).

But this is just my .02
 

BlueTrain

New member
Wow, what a post! Among other things, it tends to make you think about exactly what you are trying to do, which is to shoot another human being, presumably with the intent to kill them. One cannot assume otherwise.

There are some interesting parallels with being stabbed with a knife or sword and there have also been some well written studies about that. The chief problem, which also applies to being shot, is that people often refuse to conform to our expectations with regards to injury. All the same, it is an easy matter to inflict a fatal wound. The problem is the difficulty of producing a quickly disabling wound. There are plenty of instances to prove both points and they are regularly reported in the paper, though not necessarily accurately.

Some of statements in the first post suggest that a full metal jacket would be the preferred load and in some instances it undoubtedly would be. There are plenty of people here who would agree the a .45 auto with a full metal jacket would take care of any problem they would care to tackle with a pistol, so they see no problem. Of course, at the same time, the problem is nothing like so simple as the illustrations suggest and besides, the target really goes all the way to the ground. And people don't always wear form fitting garments.

I'd like to also suggest a couple of things about headshots. It may be true that the skull is difficult to penetrate and a bullet will likely be deflected. But it is also true that a hit to the top of the head will almost certainly cause the person to drop like a rock. It is unlikely to be fatal even though it will be an awful looking wound and the individual is very likely to quickly recover enough to get up again almost right away. Nonetheless, such a hit is likely to cause such a reaction. And a person's head is almost always in view even when nothing else is.
 

18DAI

New member
Great info/graphics, thanks. One question though, why would anyone want to shoot a big busted woman? Regards 18DAI.
 

Odd Job

New member
@ rmagill and Blue Train

A head shot might be nice, but it is a small area. The other problem is that if you hit the guy anywhere in the face, there is a greater chance for a deflection away from the skull vault itself. One of our trauma nurses sustained a gunshot wound just under the eye and the bullet was deflected downwards by the inferior orbital rim through her mouth and into her neck. She lost an eye but her brain was not harmed. In a similar vein I have seen many patients come into the hospital with gunshot wounds to the head and many of those have not suffered a loss of consciousness at all. Many of those have been tangential to the bone. If you could guarantee to hit the head all the time, and in such a manner as to cause an undeflected trajectory involving the brain, then I say yes that is preferable to a chest shot. But it is a big 'if' in my book.
 
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rmagill

New member
Odd Job,

A head shot is not my prefered aiming point. However, if someone is threatening immediate severe bodily harm or death, they need to be stopped. If a shot "in the box" is not available, the only other alternative that I know of that has a chance of instantly stopping them is a head shot.

I know that the odds of a successful incapacitation is low, but it would be the only remaining shot that has a chance of immediately incapacitating them. Again, in picture 14, the shootable area below the suspect's arms is roughly the same as the shootable area of his head. So the question becomes, which will stop him quicker? Shots to non-vital organs (the arguement of "Ow, you shot me, I will now stop" aside) will not instantly stop him. However, a shot to the head has a much higher chance of immediately stopping him than would a shot to the lower torso.

As for odds of hitting the brain/CNS, that is where training comes into play. We should all practice enough to be a good enough shot to shoot him every time in the soft spots in the head (eyes/nose) that would allow a bullet to disrupt the CNS the easiest. Granted, I am not there yet, but that is why we practice.

A head shot is not my first choice. As I said, my first choice is to shoot him in "the box". However, when this is not possible and I need to stop the threat immediately, I will take the possability of an instant stop over the unlikelihood of a one-shot-stop to a non-vital organ. But this is my .02 cents. Feel free to disagree.
 

Odd Job

New member
@ All

Thanks!!
I use the same style when I do talks/presentations. I am one of these dudes who LOVES pictures.
 

BlueTrain

New member
Actually, this presentation (the graphics) rather transforms an academic discussion of shootings into something gruesome, but those are the facts of gunshots.

My mention of headshots was intended to highlight certain points. I did not intend to suggest the head was not difficult to hit but rather that the head will often be the most exposed body part and that is one reason soldiers wear armor first on their head. It is also the part you are most likely to focus on (unless it is a big busted woman!!) when looking at another person and it is possible that may have an unconscious effect on your aim.

Likewise, I was only suggesting that a hit to the head will very likely put the person down immediately, if it does anything, but even so, such a wound, if not immediately fatal, will possibly only cause a momentary incapacitation. Generally speaking, it would be similar to reactions in a boxing match. Not much to count on but better than nothing.

The reaction of an individual when shot will still be difficult to predict since the circumstances will be so varied.

Another thought that just occurred to me is that in military training, the head is sometimes taught to be the aiming point for certain ranges, as are other points up and down on the torso, but this has nothing to do with pistol shooting.
 

dfaugh

New member
Mozambique---2 to the chest, SLIGHT PAUSE, one to the head. many of my friends in LE are now being taught this. Negates inability to make "clean" COM hits, or body armor. COM is first choice, as its a bigger target, but head shot will usually be disabling, if not fatal.
 

Odd Job

New member
@ All

The point I am keen on making is that no matter where you intend to place your shot, even if you can do so with millimetric precision, there is no guarantee that the surface placement will result in the deep structures being hit as intended. This applies to head shots too. Have a look at this real life shooting (from my research files, Case no 35):

WARNING: This photograph is not for the faint of heart
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/Case35APPhoto.jpg

How do you like that shot placement? Anything wrong with that? No. Yet...the bullet was deflected by the frontal bone and it followed an inferior path through the maxillary sinus on the left, through the upper molars (which were smashed) and then into the oral cavity and then into the tissues lateral to the mandible. I found one lead fragment in his stomach too (ingested), when he went for CT of the head (I added a scout view of his stomach). His brain was untouched and he was a sole maxillo-facial concern.

So I would summarise by saying that deflections are not a rare occurence, they are quite common and I have many cases that demonstrate this (not just involving the head and chest, and not all involving bone strikes).
 
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smiling cobra

New member
great job

most excellent...I was taught mozambique...or triple tap years ago as a state LEO..Odd job that was a great presentation...thanks COBRA>>>Semper Fi
 

Odd Job

New member
Part II - some terminology as applies to gunshot wounds

I must warn you that all the linked images are graphic.

I am seeing varied and confusing terminology when discussing the behaviour of a projectile when interacting with a target on this board. I thought I would describe the terminology I use as applies to gunshot wounds.

There are four possible outcomes when a projectile is fired at a person:

1) It can miss.
2) It can graze the person.
3) It can go into the person and not come out. The proper term for this is a penetrating injury.
4) It can go into the person and some or all of the original projectile can come out. The proper term for this is a perforating injury.

I am not concerned with number (1) above, I am only concerned with hits of some description. Likewise I am not concerned with intermediate targets, I am only concerned with the type of injury the projectile causes from the moment it hits the target.

Vincent Di Maio says that there are 4 types of gunshot wounds:

1) Graze
2) Tangential
3) Penetrating
4) Perforating

His description of a graze injury is the same as my description of a tangential injury. His description of a tangential injury is one where the skin is ripped in a ragged fashion and there is potential for underlying subcutaneous damage. The examples he offers in his book "Gunshot Wounds" are all due to high velocity projectiles from centerfire rifles. I would rather call those injuries perforating injuries because it is my opinion that those projectiles have breached the skin and that the rupture of the skin along the bullet track is not due to the direct passage of the projectile. The ragged nature of the breaches supports my observation (the tears look like lightning strikes).
Anyway the point I am making here is that I have a different view from Di Maio and I only describe three types of gunshot wounds:

1) Tangential
2) Penetrating
3) Perforating

Di Maio and I have the same description of what a penetrating and perforating wound is. I will provide graphics to demonstrate the 3 types as I describe them. Figure A is a tangential trajectory, Figure B is a penetrating trajectory and Figure C is a perforating trajectory.

FigureA.jpg


FigureB.jpg


FigureC.jpg


The key features of a tangential gunshot injury are as follows:

1) It is a 'graze.'
2) The wound can be visually inspected. There is no damage that is not directly accessible by the health care worker.
3) No projectiles or fragments thereof are retained in the wound.
4) This is the only gunshot wound that does not merit being X-rayed. The reason it does not have to be X-rayed is because the clinician's visual inspection provides all the information he or she needs to assess the severity of the wound.
5) Generally the patient does not require hospitalisation. The only detrimental effects to look out for in these cases are those relating to infection and also those related to psychological stress on the victim.

Here is a typical tangential wound (Vincent Di Maio calls this a graze wound).

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/Tangential.jpg

The key features of a penetrating gunshot injury are as follows:

1) All of the original components of the projectile that were incident to the skin, are retained in the body.
2) Whether the projectile fragments or deforms is irrelevant to the classification of this injury as 'penetrating.'
3) If the projectile or fragments thereof are propelled through the body by natural means and are subsequently expelled this remains a penetrating injury. There are many cases in the literature where this has happened. A typical example would be a projectile fragment that enters the urinary system and is subsequently expelled in the urine.
4) All penetrating gunshot injuries must be X-rayed because the clinician cannot visually inspect the wound track and therefore cannot give a 100% guarantee that all projectiles or fragments thereof have been accounted for.

Here is a typical penetrating gunshot wound (note that technically if you were dead certain that no other skin breaches were present, you could confidently call this an entrance wound):

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/Penetrating.jpg

The key features of a perforating gunshot injury are:

1) All or part of the projectile that was incident to the skin travels subcutaneously and makes an exit from the body.
2) It does not matter whether the whole projectile exits or only a piece of the core, or only a piece of insert or only a piece of jacketing: this is still a perforating gunshot wound.
3) If a projectile breaks into two pieces and only one piece makes an exit, this is still a perforating wound. This classification is not affected by projectile fragments remaining in the body.
4) All perforating gunshot wounds must be X-rayed.

Here is a perforating gunshot injury:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/Perforating.jpg

Now there are several things I want to point out here. Firstly there are pitfalls surrounding the classification of a wound as perforating. The most problematic of these pitfalls is the tendency of some ER clinicians to count skin breaches and attempt to classify the wound in that manner. For example they will count two holes and assume that this is a perforating injury. However those two holes could easily be two entrance wounds from two penetrating injuries.
The next pitfall is the tendency of some ER clinicians to expect exit wounds to be larger than entrance wounds, and indeed, to classify wounds as being those of entrance or exit based purely on the size of the wounds or a general 'impression' of the wounds. There is adequate literature to indicate that clinicians generally do not accurately describe wounds of entrance and exit. I put this down to lack of experience or forensic training or lack of means and time to examine these wounds and arrive at a proper determination of whether these are entrance or exit wounds. My experience in a very busy trauma unit in Johannesburg leads me to make the following recommendations to ER staff:

1) Do not, in any written or verbal communication or documentation, make a statement to the effect that a particular wound is an entrance or exit wound, unless supplementary evidence not related to the appearance of the skin breaches themselves is at hand. In simple terms, don't declare it unless you have other proof such as X-ray imaging (radiology can determine which wound is the entrance and which one is the exit in some cases), or clothing evidence (a failed exit through the fabric means the corresponding skin breach is an exit wound in most cases).
2) Size doesn't matter. Granted, in most perforating injuries where the bullet has remained intact the exit wound will be larger because the bullet may have yawed or expanded prior to exit. However, don't forget what I said about perforating injuries: you need only have a portion of the original projectile making an exit in order for this to be a perforating injury. You can't be sure of which components have exited the body without having good knowledge of what the radiological appearances of a particular projectile are, coupled with knowledge of what projectile is involved in the case at hand.
3) The patient's recollection of events may not be accurate. There may be a nefarious rationale behind this. Asking how many shots were fired may not be helpful, depending on the circumstances of the shooting.

As I said previously you have less chance to make a mistake by finding a single skin breach and calling that the entrance wound as opposed to assuming that multiple breaches are due to a perforating injury.

When discussing other targets such as gel blocks, car doors, furniture etc I would use the same terminology. If a bullet penetrates a car door it means it went in one side and did not come out the other. If it went through the car door, then it perforated the car door. And then you have the added factor of tangential shots producing ricochets, but that is a subject for another thread.
I'm here mainly to talk meat, not metal ;)
 
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CDH

New member
Based on your first post, you seem to be concentrating on the heart as the only organ that will put an immediate stop to an attacker (the little square in red).

And you also intimate by your subsequent post that you are in some kind of position as a coroner or some profession that allows you to take bodies apart.
I can't make such claims, but I have looked at the issue of a preferred one-shot stop hit, and I think you are putting too much emphasis on such a small target.

There is a major nerve bundle that runs from the brain straight down the spine. Any hit on that bundle will place enough shock to the nervous system that a person hit in that way would drop immediately because those nerves involve all motor abilities in the rest of the body.

So my .02 is that any shot placed at the sternum and up to the head will stop an attack immediately. Of course, that's assuming a straight on placement, but if you aim (and hit) at center of chest (basically what you said), you are going to stop the attack.
I think that the standard teaching to shoot "center of mass" is that it doesn't matter how the attacker is facing you, you will still hit vital parts because center of mass is not "center of chest", but "center of mass of the target" which could be in many places other than center of chest depending on how the attacker is facing you.

I just think that there's a lot more in the chest cavity that can be hit that will put an attacker down, including a wound that punctures the lung even though it's not in the nerve bundle.

I don't disagree with your assessments, I just think that hitting "center of mass" is a lot easier to concentrate on while under stress where you fear for your life than trying to think "Let's see now, he just turned 15 degrees to the left so I have to adjust my aim 2.7 inches to the left and up about an inch."

Once the action starts, it has been shown that there is very little thinking going on, so again, shooting for "center of mass" (as presented to you) shortcuts a lot of what you said.

Carter
 

Odd Job

New member
@ CDH

In my first post I made it clear that I was using that illustrative red plate in the chest as an example:

To illustrate this, let us pretend that every bad guy we ever encounter will always stand with his arms out sideways (as in Figure 1) and that there is a critical rectangular plate of known dimensions within his chest (as in Figure 2, 3 and 4). Let us also pretend that any bullet that can pass through that plate so that it damages any two parallel surfaces of the plate, will result in an instant incapacitation of that man.

I am not a coroner or even a doctor. I am a radiographer. I have certain dealings and research to do with gunshot wounds and Johannesburg is the place where I got my experience.

Generally my advice corresponds to the latter part of your post.
 

Odd Job

New member
@ CDH

So my .02 is that any shot placed at the sternum and up to the head will stop an attack immediately.

Well it is a very small target, if you intend to cause neurological incapacitation at that level. You have to disprupt the spinal cord. If you look at a CT scan of a neck and see how small the area is in the axial plane, you will realise it is going to be very difficult to hit intentionally.

Edit: here is a CT slice through the neck at the level of C3-C4. Basically for those not in the know, it is a type of cross-sectional medical imaging that uses multiple X-ray projections to compute a section of anatomy in any given plane. In this case the plane is axial (what you would see if you fed the guy's neck through a bacon-slicer). The white arch at the top is the jaw, so you are looking at this as if the guy is lying on his back.
I have outlined in red where the spinal cord sits and I have been a little generous in describing its size. But overall I am sure you will agree that the spinal cord is quite small. Of course, you could get lucky and hit the guy's spine (the light grey thing around the red dot) so that pieces of bone are projected backwards into the spinal canal, and those pieces may sever or damage the cord. But I wouldn't go for that shot myself.

CTneckC3-C4level.jpg
 
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bdarin

Moderator
What about being so scared that you empty the weapon into the person? Seems that at least one of those (6,8,9,14) shots will do the trick, even with crappy lead wadcutter bullets. Course, all I know of gunshot wounds I learned right here (nice work, Oddjob), so I'm far from being an expert. I guess I'm looking more at the quantity of lead rather than the quality, since we're probably in a panic situation here, especially if it's your first time having to do this. OK?
 

Odd Job

New member
@ bdarin

Agreed, I don't know what will happen. I know what I should do, as I sit here nice and comfortable at my keyboard out of harm's way in London. But whether I do it if the time comes, I cannot predict. I have not been in a gunfight and I hope I never will be in one.
 
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