Odd brass turned out to be .38 Short Colt

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TailGator

New member
The title says it. While loading some 9 mm this evening, I ran across a piece of rimmed brass of the same length. Head stamp was RP 38 SC. I confess that I had to google it to learn that it was .38 Short Colt. I know only what I found online, but according to Wikipedia it was created to convert 1851 Colts to cartridge revolvers.

Never encountered it before - thought it might give someone a grin, and some of you folks with far more knowledge than I might fill us in a bit more.
 
7

74A95

New member
Currently used by some revolver competitive shooters because short cartridges are quicker to align with cylinder chambers than long cartridges, like the 38 Special.

The 38 short colt and 38 long colt will fit in 38 special chambers. The only difference is their length.
 
N

Nick_C_S

New member
I've dabbled with 38 SC just for fun. Loaded a 100gn DEWC under 1.8 grains of Bullseye, if memory serves.

Just looked it up. Here it is . . .

I've loaded a 105gn TFP (Truncated Flat Point) with 2.7 grains of Bullseye. Yielded 730 f/s through a 4" bbl (Smith Model 67 38 Special revolver).
And a 100gn DEWC with 1.8 grains of Bullseye. 548 f/s through the same gun.

They can be decapped and sized with a conventional 38/357 sizer die.
I flaired them with a 9mm flair die.
I seated them with an RCBS 38SC specific seater die. A die which cost a great deal, considering I was just having a little fun by loading them. I also bought 500 pcs of Starline brass just for this "fun."

I wish there was a modern revolver specifically chambered for 38SC - that would be neat and fun. I'd shoot a lot more of them. But putting them in a 38 Special revolver (let alone a 357 revolver) with the nearly 400/1000" open charge hole space before reaching the cylinder throats doesn't sit well with me. I'm thinking accuracy and clean up issues (like the infamous "ring" from shooting 38's in a 357 - I don't like that either).

They are used a lot in revolver competitions, using moon clips. I don't think they have any other modern use.
 
7

74A95

New member
Nick_C_S said:
I wish there was a modern revolver specifically chambered for 38SC - that would be neat and fun. I'd shoot a lot more of them. But putting them in a 38 Special revolver (let alone a 357 revolver) with the nearly 400/1000" open charge hole space before reaching the cylinder throats doesn't sit well with me. I'm thinking accuracy and clean up issues (like the infamous "ring" from shooting 38's in a 357 - I don't like that either).
Click to expand...

I recently fired factory Remington 38 SC in a Ruger Blackhawk 357 magnum. They were very accurate. More accurate than most 38 Special loads - something I didn't expect.
 
T

TailGator

New member
Thanks for the interesting comments, guys. I suppose with the case that short that the original black powder rounds, back when its purpose was converting the Colt Navy pistols, didn't generate much velocity by modern standards?
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
".38 Central Fire for .36 C&B conversion was pretty much the Long Colt.
I don't know what was native in Short Colt."

"I suppose with the case that short that the original black powder rounds, back when its purpose was converting the Colt Navy pistols, didn't generate much velocity by modern standards?"


Well... no, not really, despite a lot of what you see on the intertubes.

The cap and ball conversion cartridges weren't, to a large degree, set up for centerfire conversion, but rimfire.

Some of the old cap and ball revolvers are seen in centerfire, but they are very rare, and as I understand it there's quite a bit of debate as to whether they were original, or later "converted conversions."

The original conversion cartridges for the 1851 were the .38 Short/Long rimfire. Both of these cartridges were developed either during or just after the Civil War.

Remington was chambering rifles in .38 rimfire in 1866 or so, and arms and ammunition catalogs of the late 1860s show both the .38 short/long rimfire (as well as the other .38 rimfires that were around at the time).

The .38 Short/Long centerfires weren't introduced until sometime in the 1870s. The .38 Long centerfire was first cataloged as a Colt round in 1875 the New Line, New House, and New Police revolvers.
 
J

Jim Watson

New member
According to Flayderman, most of the conversions were done after 1970; some even bearing 1871 and 1872 patent dates. A lot of those were not really conversions, they were built for cartridges out of parts on hand.
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
The conversions really kicked off after S&Ws patent on the bored through cylinder expired in 1869.

But the majority were converted prior to the introduction of the Colt centerfire .38 cartridges in the mid 1870s. And most, if not all, were converted for the rim fire cartridges because it worked well and easily with the existing hammer and frame configuration.

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U

Unclenick

Staff
Mike is right. IIRC, the 38 Short Colt (38 SC) had a 0.375" heeled bullet in a rimfire case, so it looked sort of like a giant 22 Short. When the centerfire version emerged, it was called 38 Short Center Fire (38 SCF), but later people got lazy and dropped the "F" at the end and it became what is now called 38 SC, which people took to mean 38 Short Colt, even though that's not really what it is. It's like calling the 45 Colt a 45 Long Colt, only backwards.
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
These are three of the four cartridges we're talking about...

.38 Short rimfire, .38 Short Colt, and .38 Long Colt. I don't know where my .38 Long rimfire got to, but it's around somwhere.

414213182.jpg


The .38 Short Colt (centerfire) is a post WW II round, as evidenced by the relief cut above the rim.

The .38 Long Colt is a military round loaded at Frankford Arsenal around 1898, IIRC.

It's the Army round, as it has the .357 caliber bullet. The Navy round maintained the old, heeled bullet design that gave it a .375 diameter bullet.

414213183.jpg
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
"Mike is right. IIRC, the 38 Short Colt (38 SC) had a 0.375" heeled bullet in a rimfire case, so it looked sort of like a giant 22 Short."

Except you're incorrect in your terminology, Nick. The .38 short rimfire round was never known as the .38 Short Colt.

I've never seen any evidence that any of the early .38 rimfires were ever identified as originating with Colt or any other firearms manufacturer.
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
The guns.com article repeats the fallacy that the .38 centerfire was developed as a conversion cartridge.

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U

Unclenick

Staff
Interesting. My memory probably tripped me up on the heeled bullet, as I hadn't recalled it being loaded in the centerfire case. Nifty to see the photo.
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
I'm not sure but the first Colt revolver chambered in .38 Short Colt may have been the Model 1872.

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M

Mike Irwin

Staff
R.L. Wilson's book on Colt says that centerfire conversions were made from old cap and ball guns and parts but he gives no figures other than overall totals.

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