Non-toxic ammunition

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USGuns

New member
With a new little-one on the way, I've been keenly interested in totally Non-toxic (lead free) ammunition. Here's some useful research the state of NJ did:
http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/pdfs/non_toxammo2.pdf

Are non-toxic-ammunition-only ranges the wave of the future?
It would certainly eliminate one more excuse for the anti-gunners (environmental impact of lead), and would decrease costs for range owners (air-flow equipment, lead cleanup, etc.). Eventually with increased economies of scale, they can hopefully get those non-toxic ammunition costs down.
 
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Hemicuda

New member
is is just me, or does anyone else out there realize that though toxic, lead DOES come (in pure form) straight out of the Earth? (antimony does too)

Lead occurrs naturally in NATURE ITSELF!
 
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4V50 Gary

Staff
I think lead free ammo is the way of the future. As ranges become increasingly under EPA scrutiny and politicos seek one means or another to deny us our sport, we will see new ranges opening with ammo restrictions. LE ranges are going in that direction.

Like many other TFLers, I think if it came from the earth, it can go back to the earth. Heavy metal is your friend. :p
 
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Skorzeny

New member
Anyone who knows me understands that I am a huge fan of de-regulation and government non-intervention. I also generally disagree with the ways in which the government (at almsot all levels) enforces "environmental" laws.

Having said that, I will say that, at a purely objective, medical level, lead-free (or non-toxic) ammo and range are good things.

4V50 Gary:
Like many other TFLers, I think if it came from the earth, it can go back to the earth. Heavy metal is your friend.
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You ready for some uranium that originally came from the earth in your back earth (yard)? :p

Skorzeny
 
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ENC

New member
My boss tells us stories of when he was youger of working in Uranium mines in NM they would drill up looking for radioactivity as they drilled up they would hit ground water. They would drink the water right out of the holes. By and by people disovered some of Radiations harmful effects and fired everybody telling each one they probably wouldn't live to see 30. He just turned 63, and is probably in better shape than I will be at that age.
 
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croyance

New member
And don't forget that arsenic is a naturally occuring element. What was the original point of saying lead is natural?

I think that lead free ammunition is the wave of the future. I buy it when I find it. It is great for range officer and instructors, one less work hazard. I'd worry less about the forced air systems, or lack thereof, of indoor ranges.

Ammo should only be potentially lethal to game animals, varmints, and criminals.
 
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M1911

New member
Yup, lead occurs naturally. So does arsenic. And asbestos. And lots of other things that will kill you in high enough concentrations. Very pure lead in high concentrations that is free (not bound up in rock) doesn't occur naturally (at least not very often). I don't think you can thus claim that the conditions in a backstop are similar to those occuring normally in nature. The conditions in many indoor ranges ARE clearly hazardous to health given enough exposure. Given the right soil and water chemistry, lead can become soluble and mobile in ground water, according to the NSSF.

Most of the reloading that I do these days is TMJ, which, unlike FMJ, is jacketed on the base of the bullet. This reduces a significant portion of the airborne lead. I would love to be able to use non-toxic ammo, but it just isn't economically viable at this point.

I have been to a couple classes at SigArms Academy where they exclusively use non-toxic ammo on their indoor range. At short distances, there's no real ballistic penalty by not using lead. And the frangible bullets allow you to use a much lighter backstop and shoot plates at very close distances (5 yards).

At rifle ranges, I'm sure the reduced weight would cause a significant ballistic penalty.

M1911
 
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Skorzeny

New member
My boss tells us stories of when he was youger of working in Uranium mines in NM they would drill up looking for radioactivity as they drilled up they would hit ground water. They would drink the water right out of the holes. By and by people disovered some of Radiations harmful effects and fired everybody telling each one they probably wouldn't live to see 30. He just turned 63, and is probably in better shape than I will be at that age.
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Yeah, yeah and I know a cop lady who was shot in the chest with a .357 Magnum and is still alive (and very athletic and healthy), but no one suggests that getting shot with such is healthy.

Sheesh (shaking my head)... Some folks just take their anecdotes a little too far...

Skorzeny
 
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Navy joe

New member
Maybe if someone in the EPA had some sense they would sweat the lead in the primer compounds and leave the projectiles alone. On a dirt backstop I don't see bullets being an enviro hazard in the least. Think about it, if that was true shouldn't all of todays children in the Gettysburg area be three-eyed freaks? Well what I mean is I know they're from PA so they're already kinda odd, but no worse off than the rest of the state. ;)
I worry a lot about primer residue though, was my hands after playing with brass, indoor range has very good air. My big fear with lead-free bullets is that they will price them out of reason or restrict the components as a backdoor way of drying up reloaders. This is a gov't bueracracy, how will you prove your ammo is lead-free unless you purchase it commercially? How will it aafect your prepositioned stores of lead bearing ammo? Will it even be legal to own?
 
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WESHOOT2

New member
NON- vs TOXIC

All my ammo (so far) is completely toxic.

I like that.

Someday I might be forced to make it differently, but there are others who already are filling that need.
 
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Selfdfenz

New member
Possible alternative

Disclaimer-I don't have any financial interest in this company other that buying their products.
I go to an indoor range that is equipped with forced air. I assume most of my exposure is from the primer (un-leaded?) and the atomization that happens close in as the slug passes down the bore. I figure the exposure from the slug hitting the backstop (blocks of old tire chunks compressed into blocks) is minimal.

Since I reload, I didn't want to give up the cost benefits of lead and I found a company called Precision Bullets in Kemp TX that produces a "coated" bulllet that has many advantages over both lead and TMJ bullets.

They make a very accurate bullet that leaves very nearly nothing in the bore. From my experience recovering their fired slugs I believe their claims. I think they have a website.

My guess is that reloaders get more lead from tumbler dust during case cleaning than they do from actual shooting. (I swap mine out the tumbler media pretty regularly nowdays)

JM2cents.

S-
 
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George Dickel at Work

New member
Seems like I read something not long ago that the government or an environmental group did a study of lead at outdoor ranges. The claim of lead bullets contaminating the water was not true. There was no evidence that it caused any problems. Indoors I can see a problem if there is inadequate ventilation. I wouldn't believe anything coming from the NJ government anyway. That bunch is so far left and anti-gun that anything they say is suspect. My question is why would you be concerned about a newborn and lead bullets?
 
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goosegunner

New member
In wetlands lead pellets sink to the bottom where ducks and goose collect pebble for their digestion-system if a bird get just one or to lead pellets into their system the bird will most likely die.
In Norway there have been a few cases where there have been found (dead) lead poisoned birds. But to ban lead outside wetlands I don't think there is many arguments for.

Anyway, in the future there will be more regulation on hunting/shooting and a lead ban will come, a lot of countries have one allready. :(
 
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Malone LaVeigh

New member
I am all for minimizing toxicity, but before I jump into using something different, I would like to know the toxic props of the alternative. All too often, the alternative turns out to be just as bad or have unforseen consequences (e.g. MTBE).

Elements indicated in the linked article were Tungsten, Tin, and Zinc. The EPA's aquatic life criterion for Zn is in the parts per billion, IIRC. I'll do some searching on the others. Does anyone know any other elements used in the "nontoxic" loads?

Also, what are the sources for them. The folks here at Big 5 don't have a clue, and, unfortunately, that's the only place in town that sells ammo.

If the nontoxic alternatives turn out to be viable, I will definitely convert exclusively to them. Like in most other areas of life, there's no excuse for not doing the right thing. As far as the "it came from the earth" argument is concerned, there are a lot of things that come from the earth to which you don't want to be exposed at high concentrations.
 
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Tamara

Moderator Emeritus
I guess...

...this would explain why guys around guns a lot die at such tender young ages. Think of all the exposure to lead and various toxic priming compounds suffered by Elmer Keith, Skeeter Skelton, Bill Jordan, Col. Cooper...
 
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UltimaThule

New member
Goosegunner
and a lead ban will come
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Go here: http://odin.dep.no/md/norsk/aktuelt/pressem/022051-070025/index-dok000-b-n-a.html
(for the rest of you guys, it's in Norwegian)

All use of lead shot on Norwegian shooting ranges are banned from July 1st this year, "all use, import, export, manufacture and trade" of lead shot is banned from January 1st 2005. Bans like this are already enforced in Denmark and the Netherlands.

Anyone wanna bet the same bureaucrats are soon going to make the "shocking" discovery that lead is also used in rifle and handgun ammo?

Malone
Like in most other areas of life, there's no excuse for not doing the right thing.
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Right on, but I'm still pee'd off by incompetent bureaucrats (that's a redundancy if I ever saw one). They are not doing anything because it's the right thing, they're doing it to prove they have the power and influence to do it.
 
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M1911

New member
Navyjoe:

Actually, the bulk of airborne lead from shooting does not come from the primer. The bulk of it comes from the base of the bullet. The base of the bullet is exposed to the combustion of the powder, and a small portion of the base is vaporized as a result. Switching to TMJ or JHP bullets greatly reduces airborne lead.

Of course, that still doesn't address the issue of lead in the backstop. One of the main concerns of the EPA is that lead in the backstop of an outdoor range can leach into the groundwater, given the right soil and water chemistry.

Malone:

Call up one of the manufacturers of the non-toxic ammo and ask them for an MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for the ammo. That will tell you what is in the ammo.

M1911
 
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tl

New member
I've come late to this thread, but are their non-lead bullet factory ammunition products available now? I haven't looked extensively, but have never seen any in a gun store.
 
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