As if Twoblink's explanations weren't enough to settle the Steyr debate, I have been in contact with Dr. Aigner (Steyr Chief Design Engineer for the M-Series pistols) several times and have asked him several questions in regards to the safety and design of the pistol.
Previous threads in regards to the safety of the Steyr M-Series pistols have most often been threads hijacked from other people's innocent questions, so I am dedicating an entire thread where MacMan10 and Jimmy Mac can duke it out with the rest of us in relative privacy, while somebody else's question can be affirmatively answered without the harrassment.
Jimmy Mac repeatedly claims that:
1) There isn't a plunger-type firing pin stop, so the pistol is dangerous.
2) The firing pin catch is subject to failure, and this would result in a discharge of the pistol.
3) The pistol can go full-auto.
4) The pistol is SA.
I will address each of these seperately (as numbered subjects below) and I will attempt to put some questions to rest for other members here (like Handy) who do not have direct experience with these pistols, but who are interested in the design and function.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) "There isn't a firing pin stop, so the pistol is dangerous."
It is true that the Steyr pistol does not have a traditional plunger-type firing pin stop, as seen on SIGs, HKs, Glocks, et cetera. However, the Steyr does in fact have a firing pin safety. The sear (Part #10) is blocked from rearward movement by the sear lever and drop safety (Parts #32 and 11). The sear will not release the firing pin without rearward movement of the trigger (after the trigger safeties have been disengaged, of course).
The BATF classified the Steyr pistol as having a "firing pin block" which is not a direct firing pin safety, but uses the combination of the trigger and drop safeties to block the firing pin from forward movement. Basically, the firing pin will not fall forward unless the trigger is pulled.
From what I understand, the Springfield XD pistols don't have a plunger-type firing pin stop either, but rather a firing pin block similar to the Steyrs. I don't hear a zillion complaints about that pistol. Besides, the XD is classed by the BATF as a SA pistol (more on that later)...
...which leads us into the next comment...
2) The firing pin catch is subject to failure, and this would result in a discharge of the pistol.
This is where the fun really begins.
According to Dr. Aigner, the force on the firing pin during firing is 30 Newtons, but the force required to break the firing pin is 16,000 Newtons. This means that the firing pin is 533 times stronger than it ultimately needs to be. In engineering, this is referred to as a "Factor of Safety" or "FS". In enginnering speak, the firing pin has an "FS of 533."
Let's put this into perspective. Suppose Jimmy Mac and MacMan10 fly home to see their mothers for Christmas. Well the Factor of Safety on a commercial jetliner is about 1.2 for all critical components. It has to be this low in order to save weight and to make flying economical. In other words, the plane is only designed to withstand 20% more force than the maximum force that it is expected that it will experience in its lifetime.
So, with an FS of 1.2, you are 444.2 times more likely to have a catastrophic failure with a critical component of a commercial jetliner than you are with your Steyr firing pin.
"But what about fatigue and corrosion," Jimmy or Macman might say. My response to that would be to again consider the airline industry. Many planes, with a mere FS of 1.2, fly for 30+ years without any major failures. There are notable exceptions, like the Aloha airlines flight that had a fatigue failure of the fuselage, but by and large it is quite safe to fly on a jetliner that is definitely in more of a corrosive environment than a well-cared-for pistol will ever be. (If you say that "aluminum doesn't corrode" you obviously know nothing about engineering materials, and your input into this discussion would be a fallacy...)
Remember that the FS for the firing pin is 533 -- as opposed to 1.2 for commercial aircraft. Dr. Aigner told me that, "We have fired 150000 rounds with no breakage of the firing pin or sear." Not too bad of a track record if you ask me.
3) The pistol can go full-auto.
If I remember correctly, Glock had early models (before the "voluntary upgrade"... ) that had incorrectly designed slide rails and extractor and firing pin assemblies. The result? Slam-fire and Full-auto fun! Oh yeah, in 1992 the Glock failed the DEA's frisbee test, too. (http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/glock/gz-gupgrade.html)
What I am getting at is that early pistols may have had some problems. Even the "perfection" of Glockdum had a "voluntary" upgrade to replace extractor and firing pin components to remove the possibility of slam-fire and full auto.
A severely out-of-spec Steyr may have done what Jimmy and Macman claim. However, let us not think for a moment that other "perfect" pistols are immune to early teething problems.
I have never heard of problems with Steyr problems after the first few thousand serial number range. Mine are in the 9XXX and 16XXX range and have been absolutely perfect.
4) The pistol is SA.
This just shows a lack of understanding of the design. The BATF classified the Springfield XD as single action because the striker is fully cocked upon the slide locking shut. However, the firing pin block and other safeties make this pistol quite safe. I wonder why Jimmy and Macman don't get all flustered about those pistols.
The Steyr is classed as DA because the sear moves rearward and continues to cock the striker when the trigger is pulled. Hence, the BATF DAO designation, and the true function of the Steyr pistol.
The striker is cocked approximately 72% of the total cocking distance when the slide is shut, and requires continued cocking with the rearward movement of the sear to complete the firing cycle.
http://petej55.home.mindspring.com/xddasa.htm
Now another tidbit of safety in regards to why the Steyr is actually MORE safe than Glocks...
Yet another conversation with Dr. Aigner revealed this bit of information...
We all know that Glocks have a nasty habit of firing out of battery when they get dirty. This has been the cause of numerous kB!s and other malfunctions with Glock pistols. Just one more reason as to why I continue to buy Steyr pistols instead of Glocks.
Let the argument begin...
Previous threads in regards to the safety of the Steyr M-Series pistols have most often been threads hijacked from other people's innocent questions, so I am dedicating an entire thread where MacMan10 and Jimmy Mac can duke it out with the rest of us in relative privacy, while somebody else's question can be affirmatively answered without the harrassment.
Jimmy Mac repeatedly claims that:
1) There isn't a plunger-type firing pin stop, so the pistol is dangerous.
2) The firing pin catch is subject to failure, and this would result in a discharge of the pistol.
3) The pistol can go full-auto.
4) The pistol is SA.
I will address each of these seperately (as numbered subjects below) and I will attempt to put some questions to rest for other members here (like Handy) who do not have direct experience with these pistols, but who are interested in the design and function.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) "There isn't a firing pin stop, so the pistol is dangerous."
It is true that the Steyr pistol does not have a traditional plunger-type firing pin stop, as seen on SIGs, HKs, Glocks, et cetera. However, the Steyr does in fact have a firing pin safety. The sear (Part #10) is blocked from rearward movement by the sear lever and drop safety (Parts #32 and 11). The sear will not release the firing pin without rearward movement of the trigger (after the trigger safeties have been disengaged, of course).
The BATF classified the Steyr pistol as having a "firing pin block" which is not a direct firing pin safety, but uses the combination of the trigger and drop safeties to block the firing pin from forward movement. Basically, the firing pin will not fall forward unless the trigger is pulled.
From what I understand, the Springfield XD pistols don't have a plunger-type firing pin stop either, but rather a firing pin block similar to the Steyrs. I don't hear a zillion complaints about that pistol. Besides, the XD is classed by the BATF as a SA pistol (more on that later)...
...which leads us into the next comment...
2) The firing pin catch is subject to failure, and this would result in a discharge of the pistol.
This is where the fun really begins.
According to Dr. Aigner, the force on the firing pin during firing is 30 Newtons, but the force required to break the firing pin is 16,000 Newtons. This means that the firing pin is 533 times stronger than it ultimately needs to be. In engineering, this is referred to as a "Factor of Safety" or "FS". In enginnering speak, the firing pin has an "FS of 533."
Let's put this into perspective. Suppose Jimmy Mac and MacMan10 fly home to see their mothers for Christmas. Well the Factor of Safety on a commercial jetliner is about 1.2 for all critical components. It has to be this low in order to save weight and to make flying economical. In other words, the plane is only designed to withstand 20% more force than the maximum force that it is expected that it will experience in its lifetime.
So, with an FS of 1.2, you are 444.2 times more likely to have a catastrophic failure with a critical component of a commercial jetliner than you are with your Steyr firing pin.
"But what about fatigue and corrosion," Jimmy or Macman might say. My response to that would be to again consider the airline industry. Many planes, with a mere FS of 1.2, fly for 30+ years without any major failures. There are notable exceptions, like the Aloha airlines flight that had a fatigue failure of the fuselage, but by and large it is quite safe to fly on a jetliner that is definitely in more of a corrosive environment than a well-cared-for pistol will ever be. (If you say that "aluminum doesn't corrode" you obviously know nothing about engineering materials, and your input into this discussion would be a fallacy...)
Remember that the FS for the firing pin is 533 -- as opposed to 1.2 for commercial aircraft. Dr. Aigner told me that, "We have fired 150000 rounds with no breakage of the firing pin or sear." Not too bad of a track record if you ask me.
3) The pistol can go full-auto.
If I remember correctly, Glock had early models (before the "voluntary upgrade"... ) that had incorrectly designed slide rails and extractor and firing pin assemblies. The result? Slam-fire and Full-auto fun! Oh yeah, in 1992 the Glock failed the DEA's frisbee test, too. (http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/glock/gz-gupgrade.html)
What I am getting at is that early pistols may have had some problems. Even the "perfection" of Glockdum had a "voluntary" upgrade to replace extractor and firing pin components to remove the possibility of slam-fire and full auto.
A severely out-of-spec Steyr may have done what Jimmy and Macman claim. However, let us not think for a moment that other "perfect" pistols are immune to early teething problems.
I have never heard of problems with Steyr problems after the first few thousand serial number range. Mine are in the 9XXX and 16XXX range and have been absolutely perfect.
4) The pistol is SA.
This just shows a lack of understanding of the design. The BATF classified the Springfield XD as single action because the striker is fully cocked upon the slide locking shut. However, the firing pin block and other safeties make this pistol quite safe. I wonder why Jimmy and Macman don't get all flustered about those pistols.
The Steyr is classed as DA because the sear moves rearward and continues to cock the striker when the trigger is pulled. Hence, the BATF DAO designation, and the true function of the Steyr pistol.
The striker is cocked approximately 72% of the total cocking distance when the slide is shut, and requires continued cocking with the rearward movement of the sear to complete the firing cycle.
http://petej55.home.mindspring.com/xddasa.htm
Now another tidbit of safety in regards to why the Steyr is actually MORE safe than Glocks...
Yet another conversation with Dr. Aigner revealed this bit of information...
Dear Mr. "Tetchaje",
First of all, the Steyr pistol is completly save and it is impossible to
fire when the slide is out of battery.
The Steyr pistol is not a Glock copy, it is a new design with new solutions.
The reason for an additional firing pin safety is to prevent to fire a round
when the slide and bolt are out of battery.because the cartridge case is not
supported
Most pistols need this devise because of they have a very short straight
travel of the slide connected with the barrel until the barrel is unlocked.
E.g.Glock 1.5mm, SIG 2.5mm.
The Steyr pistol has the longest straight travel (3.5mm) of all pistols on
the world market and the unlocking way is 5mm.
1. Theoretically it is not dangerous for the shooter if the bolt is
pulled back 4mm and fired a round because the barrel is still fully locked
to the slide.
2. On the other hand the force of the firing pin spring is droped down
to an amount that it has to less energy for igniting the primer when the
slide is drawn back 4mm.
3. If you pull back the slide (4mm) , the barrel is controlled by the
multifunction part and steered downwards (1.5mm) so that the primer is no
longer in line with the firing pin. For correct igniting the firing pin has
to hit exactly the center of the primer.
When I started with the design of the pistol I tested a lot of without one
firing a cartridge in the positon out of battery. So an additional firing
pin safety is unnecessary but we have integrated a manual safety and key
lock which provides an ultimate combination of applied and mechanical
safeties.
Also the ATF in Washington and the Austrian army tried to fire a cartridge
(out of battery) with no succsess.
We all know that Glocks have a nasty habit of firing out of battery when they get dirty. This has been the cause of numerous kB!s and other malfunctions with Glock pistols. Just one more reason as to why I continue to buy Steyr pistols instead of Glocks.
Let the argument begin...