Nobody stocking Winchester .40 silvertips!

Peter Gun

New member
I have usually found these w/ no problem at almost any shop. i went to three local shops this week and nobody had any. I asked and the salespeople said they have no call for it.
I find this hard to believe. From what I have read and from my own testing I believe this to be the most effective self defense round for my G22. It doesnt have the marketing glitz that Golden Sabres or Hydroshoks do, but it has lots of speed, seems to be tied for the largest diameter of expansion (in tests I've read), is very accurate, functions flawlessly and fully expands in any material I shoot it into. It's also quite a bit cheaper than most of the Glam rounds.
Am I abberant? Is there a good reson for not using this round? I still see a lot available on the web, but should I start buying cases? Is winchester planning on dropping it? Thanks for any advice.
 

BLiTzNicK

New member
The Wal-Mart here put their last few boxes on clearence a few months back. Marked down to $11 and change a box. All 6 boxes are still there today. I have no idea why someone hasn't picked them up yet.

There must not be much of a demand for them. The gun stores around here don't stock them either.
 

fastbolt

New member
I wouldn't worry about it being dropped ... if Winchester was going to drop a Silver Tip round, the .32, .380, 110gr .38 spl & 185gr .45 ACP would've gone away a while ago ... simply because they're at the bottom of most so-called serious defensive ammunition performance tests nowadays, due to lesser penetration.

I can agree with the lack of market interest in some areas, though, since you hardly ever see the 155gr .40 S&W Silver Tip out in this area. I bought a box once, mostly because I accidently came across it a very large sporting goods store. Lots & lots of Winchester ammunition, spread along rows of shelves, but only a few boxes of this load. I ended up using it for range ammo, because I won't carry anything lighter than 165gr for duty or off duty use ... Penetration concerns ...

It works exactly as Winchester designed it to work, however, and it's certainly worthy of being considered among their premium line.
 

Peter Gun

New member
So penetration concerns are the main reason for not choosing this round? I thought I saw ballistic gelatin reports that showed silertips to be near the top for penetration in gelatin. Using it at the shooting pit it has no trouble penerating car bodies, 3/4" plywood stacks, and snowboards.:D Could someone give me an example of a situation where the 155gr would not be adequate? I'm not trying to start a ammunition war here, just want to know if there is a scenario I havent considered.
 

fastbolt

New member
Peter Gun,

I really like your forum name, by the way ... I can hear the music from the TV Show as I'm typing this ... :D

Penetration concerns are MY reason for not selecting this round. To be more specific, the high velocity of this round will probably make it quite effective in overcoming intermediate barriers and obstacles, as you mentioned. However, I'm less concerned about the hard barrier issue, even though I work L/E, than I am about soft tissue penetration. Some of the tests we reviewed while looking at new weapons and ammunition selection seemed to indicate the 155gr round just wasn't what we desired for soft tissue penetration. Some agencies, though, think this is simply everything the .357 Magnum, .45 ACP and 9mm ... combined ... always wanted to be, but wasn't ...

I sure don't want to draw the usual folks into a velocity vs. weight debate in this thread ... that's going on enough elsewhere at the moment ...

It's just that the higher velocity, lighter weight bullets ... for this caliber ... have seemed to demonstrate a tendency to expand rather dramatically, even to the point of fragmenting, but not penetrating as deeply into soft tissue as the 165gr & 180gr rounds.

This is strictly a personal preference issue ... and someone not in L/E may very well want a round that is dramatic in expansion, while exhibiting more shallow penetration ...

And then there are going to be the folks that adhere to the muzzle-energy-means-everything theory ... and the 155gr rounds certainly have muzzle energy figures that are impressive ... and energy is required to perform work, which means more energy & velocity means better hard barrier penetration ... etc, etc ... and L/E folks that want to shoot through car doors may find the higher velocity & energy figures appealing and more "practical". Fine ... we're all happy with our choices, and I think that's the way it should be ...

Another issue that's been connected to the 155gr bullet weight, however, is recoil force generated, and the effect it has upon the particular pistol. While it's not my place to name names ... I frequently discuss things like this with folks connected to other agencies, and vendors that support the firearms used by other agencies. The 155gr rounds have been linked to excessive recoil forces adversely affecting the reliability of at least one pistol currently in use in L/E agencies. It would be inappropriate of me to actually name the firearm manufacturer having fits with the effect of this ammunition on their pistol, as they're working to resolve the parts breakage and reliability issues. As it was explained to me, though, the manufacturer only had the 180gr ammunition in mind when they designed and engineered their pistols, and this lighter weight, harder recoiling round is causing some problems regarding reliabilty and maintenance that were unexpected. Naturally, the easiest thing to do would be to select any 180gr or 165gr weight ammunition, but ...

I'm sure everything will eventually be worked out and resolved ... until the latest 125gr Wonder Bolt .40 Short Magnum is introduced, and then we'll take another ride on this roller coaster ...

Most firearms manufacturers are right up front about the .40 S&W ... and now the .357SIG ... being harder on pistol platforms than any other pistol caliber currently in use. Look at all of the design changes brought about by it's introduction. Forged slides replacing stamped, folded & laser welded slides ... heavier, reinforced frames ... "new" recoil spring & guide rod assemblies being designed & introduced ... These are all good things for the folks buying these pistols, though, as we're getting much improved and stronger firearms.

Sorry if I rambled. Suffice to say that if you're happy with this 155gr round, you have every reason to keep on using it. Don't change anything based upon my preference, just because it's MY preference. I may very well be influenced by new testing and data in the coming months that makes me reverse my present choice ... This isn't a static field of interest, and we've got to remain open-minded if we're going to benefit from all of the research and engineering design being applied to the firearms and ballistics fields nowadays ...
 

Peter Gun

New member
Thanks fastbolt!
Such a refreshing change to discuss ONE aspect of a load w/out having it degenerate into a flame war or magic bullet exhaltation. I am a firm beleiver in this round and my G22 loves it. It must have something to do w/ the gun, but I always felt the 155gr does not recoil as heavy as the 180's Ive shot, though I am aware that is not the general consensus. I appreciate your thoughtful reply. I think I'll stick w/ my nice inexpensive, hot silvertips till I see some more dramatic evidence to switch. So far I havent shot 155gr at anything that it didn't penetrate except mother earth and trees!:)
 

fastbolt

New member
Peter Gun,

You're welcome ...

If you're able to get this Winchester Silver Tip load at an inexpensive price, I'd stock up whenever convenient, as it's become rather expensive out my way. Maybe if Winchester dropped the price on this .40 S&W load, they'd sell more of it ... I don't know what their marketing strategy is.

I know you can buy the SXT loads for less, and they're premium loads, as well ... Just no 155gr load available in SXT ... and 155gr is the only Silver Tip load available in .40 S&W, although there are 165gr & 180gr loads available in other Winchester ammunition lines. Go figure. My uneducated guess would be the Silver Tip bullet design allows for a certain desired level of performance (expansion & penetration-wise) at the velocity the 155gr load develops, while the SXT bullet, with its different notching-cut design, may not perform as well as they'd desire at the higher velocities ... yet. Don't know.

I've always had decent luck with other Silver Tip loads that use regular copper jacketing, with the nickeled Silver Tip plating, instead of the softer aluminum jackets, so I'm not surprised this 155gr load works well for you. The box of these rounds I fired certainly seemed accurate enough.

Something to keep in mind, however, is not to allow your recoil spring assembly to weaken appreciably, if you're going to shoot a LOT of 155gr loads. While the 180gr loads develop less slide velocity, they develop slightly more "felt", or perceived recoil, in the palm of the shooter's hand. This is related to the bullet weight, as well as the slightly slower "dwell time" of the recoil force being transferred into the hand. It doesn't take much of a change in bullet weight to affect the way Newtonian physics makes us "feel" recoil forces related to momentum ...

The 155gr load's recoil forces have a shorter dwell time, and so you feel less "kick" in the sense that it's occuring faster, so you don't feel "as much" of a recoil impulse. This is a human perceptual thing ... The slide is moving much faster, though, so the pistol (recoil assembly & frame, & locking block) is absorbing more recoil force delivered in a shorter time period. This is harder on the pistol. Not too hard, as long as the pistol is in good mechanical shape, just harder than the 180gr rounds.

Physical perceptions aren't always the same for our human hands and the pistol's mechanical innards.

Just make sure you check your pistol's recoil spring strength periodically, or have a Glock armorer check it annually.

Another spring issue is your magazine springs. Faster slide velocity means the magazine springs must be strong enough to keep the rounds at the top of the magazine lips so the top round is picked up by the stripper rail of the slide.

Recoil forces go in all directions, and most people don't realize the rounds in the magazine can actually "bounce" downward during recoil, and then are forced back upward by the spring. If this "bounce" is too long, the top round won't be held back up at the lips in a manner sufficient to allow the slide stripper rail to strip it from the magaizne in the proper "timing".

Hotter rounds need "fresh", or sometimes even stronger, springs in the magazine to resist this recoil generated bounce and keep the rounds positioned properly in the magazine. Some pistols are more susceptible to this phenomena than others. If the slide travel is long, the magazine springs usually have time to get the rounds moving back upward before the slide is back forward enough to pick up the round ... as long as they're strong enough to do their job. I've had this occur in a couple of pistols ... one of mine, and another shooter's ... and it was resolved by simply installing stronger magazine springs.

Lastly, check the trigger spring for proper strength periodically. This is where one other manufacturer's pistol started failing. The harmonics of the recoil forces generated by the 155gr loads actually affected the physical structure of the little coiled spring after a while, causing it to "crystallize" and shatter in as few as 3000 rounds. It apparently accelerated the expected wear, and shortened the spring's service life. That's also why another manufacturer uses a fiber insert in their little spring to dampen such forces and protect the spring in one of their pistols.

You're not the only believer in this round's effectiveness in certain situations and circumstances. Just keep your pistol in tip-top shape.

Did you grow up watching the TV show too?;)
 

Peter Gun

New member
Thanks again, fastbolt! Good info to know. Since my gun is a G22 i'm not too worried about beating it up, but I will keep an eye on it. I just had it checked out by a Glock armorer a month ago, and he said it looked great. In fact he offered to buy it because he said the trigger was the best stock G22 he had pulled! I do use blazer 155gr ammo for target too, so I guess I'll be a good durability study. I think I'm going to start stocking up on silvertips.
Sorry, I don't remember the show from the original days since I'm only 32, but I do love the theme song, especially when played by the Blues Brothers band!
 
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