No hand gun is a sure stopper

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WVfishguy

New member
I see a lot of folks on this forum extolling the virtues of the .45 acp. But with apologies to Jeff Cooper, I'd like to relate the following:

I was watching "Scariest Police Shootouts" or whatever it was called, and saw a LEO shoot a medium built DUI suspect (maybe 175 lbs.) POINT BLANK in the gut with a .45 acp.

The guy just stood there and continued to argue, and then he tried to take the gun away from the cop. (By now, I'm shouting at the TV - "Shoot him again, you dolt!")

The LEO was freaked out - the guy would not stop fighting, even with a .45 slug in him. The LEO was larger & stronger, finally got the upper hand. But it could have easily gone the other way.

This is not to say anything against the .45 acp, but it sure makes one realize what a poor stopper ANY handgun round is.

BTW - the guy who was shot was not drunk - but the car he was driving had a whole trunk full of cocaine. I guess if you have enough coke in your system, even a .45 won't stop you! :eek:

I don't know what eventually happened to the guy who was shot.
 
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Brian Pfleuger

Moderator Emeritus
Shooting someone in the stomach with ANY round is a pretty poor way to stop them. If that was an Ak-47 the guy could have kept fighting.

Shot Placement

Shot Placement

Shot Placement

There is an infamous (true) story of an officer who emptied his 357mag revolver into a very large BG and was subsequently killed with a single 22lr bullet that went under his armpit and missed his vest, hitting him in the heart.

Shot Placement.
 
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45Gunner

New member
Most of us get caught up in the two dimensional center mass paper targets when, in reality, one must be able to think on their feet under dynamic circumstances. If the BG does not go down with a .45ACP in the gut, obviously he is really doped up and on some heavy-duty drugs. I don't care what kind of drugs or how much the BG has had, a well placed round to the knee cap will take him down unless, of course, the idea is to take him down permanently. In that case, the heart or the brain will do it. As Peetzakiller stated, placement, placement, placement. And that placement must change as the dynamics change.
 
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WVfishguy

New member
It's easy to second guess while safely sitting behind a computer - I was scared, and I wasn't even there. It was a face-to-face, middle of the night confrontation. There was really no time for bullet placement - the LEO was being shoved backward, and it was reflex time. This cop just did not want to kill anyone if he did not have to.

Hell, I probably would have shot myself in the leg under the same circumstances.

This was never meant to be a caliber war - I don't think ANY handgun would have done better. It's just that most of us believe a .45 is on the top end of the scale as to "stopping power." If it had been a 9mm/.38, everyone would have said, "See! Those small calibers are no good."

The incident ended as the LEO intended: The suspect was arrested, and nobody died.

BTW - My cousin was shot in the gut with a .45. He said, "XXX, you shot me," and dropped to the floor like a rock. But he was not doing coke at the time....
 
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Rayndeon

New member
Yup Peetzakilla,

That would be Trooper Mark Coates, R.I.P. Hit the perp 5 times center-mass with a .357 Magnum, failed to drop the perp. The perp hit Trooper Coates through his exposed armpit with a .22 LR North American Arms mini-revolver* - the bullet bounced off of the bones at his shoulder and entered his heart. He died a short time after.

There was another incident where an Officer Borders fought against a determined adversary. First sustaining a 12-gauge shotgun blast of 00 buckshot to head - and surviving! - where two pellets entered his brain, he managed to hit the assailant 8 times with a .45 ACP Glock 21 - with little to no effect. Only a well-aimed headshot through the eye at the end dropped the perp instantly.

People can do amazing things when determined. Look at the FBI Miami incident. One of the where one of the officers executed a very well-aimed shot with a 115-grain Winchester Silvertip on Platt that stopped just before penetrating his heart, but had at this point caused massive damage to the viscera. Platt was dying - but he kept on fighting.

*Firearmstactical incorrectly reports 4 times - according to most sources and the official reports, the assailant, Richard Blackburn, was hit 5 times in the chest with a .357 Magnum.
 
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Rayndeon

New member
BTW - My cousin was shot in the gut with a .45. He said, "XXX, you shot me," and dropped to the floor like a rock. But he was not doing coke at the time....
Click to expand...

Sounds like a psychological stop.
 
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nolaOE800

Moderator
i was thinking about something very similar to this story just a few nights ago..

I was considering a similar scenario where I was getting robbed at gunpoint while carrying concealed. I'm fairly confident that I could draw and shoot quickly enough to surprise the attacker, but drawing from the waist band, it would be silly to bring the gun up fully to a weaver-like position when an attacker is in very close proximity, and already has his weapon pointed.
so the most logical thing (that my untrained mind could think of) was to quickly point-shoot from down low, which I would assume would probably hit somewhere in the gut. now, even if a gut shot is not likely to completely drop the attacker, it would presumably stun him long enough to get off a few more strategically placed rounds.

very long story all for one little question......:rolleyes:

would it make you look bad to the police and/or in court when they review the fact that not only did you shoot him once in the gut, but 5 more times in the chest? would it look overly excessive? would it make a jury question your innocence in the situation?
 
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Rayndeon

New member
would it make you look bad to the police and/or in court when they review the fact that not only did you shoot him once in the gut, but 5 more times in the chest? would it look overly excessive? would it make a jury question your innocence in the situation?
Click to expand...

Depends on a bunch of stuff: your area, the jury, the prosecutor, your attorney, your statements etc.

I imagine you would have a better chance of having your assault/homicide ruled justifiable if you are able to produce evidence that shooting the man/woman in the gut was not sufficient to stop him or her from posing a serious threat to your life or others. This evidence would probably tend to come in the form of witnesses and other things like that.
 
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Venom1956

New member
Holy Jesus I haven't heard of those first to cases! That's to bad.

I also remember reading somewhere (not a fact but it seemed to make sense to me) that when someone is shot their reaction is determined by their mindset or something similar. :eek:

Their examples were falling down after being shot has been ingrained in our minds since the early days of Hollywood. (like accidental discharge, or a robber meeting unexpected resistance.)

Then again when someone is actually fighting for their life you body to some extent has the ability to suppress those injuries in order to allow you to fight or escape.

Please don't take this post the wrong way. Its kinda hard to get a entire paper in a few sentences.
 
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