"No Gun" policies, zones, and concealed carry

[Lee6113]

Hello! I have a question I've been trying to look up the answer for and can't seem to find an answer.

I live in Washington State, and just got my CPL in the mail. I know the rules on not taking a concealed weapon onto school grounds, government buildings, etc. but I have a question:

My employer has a "weapon free" policy saying I cannot conceal carry while on the clock and in the workplace, and I believe they are probably able to do so because I'm their employee, but I wanted to confirm: are business (especially Fortune 500 companies) actually able to set that kind of regulation to their employees restricting the right to conceal carry?

And part two: I read that in Washington state you can not allow weapons on your private property but you have to physically ask someone to leave if they break the rule. So, if a store has a "no guns" sign or something, and I'm carrying, I could legally still enter the store until I got asked to leave, which theoretically would've happen as the gun would be concealed and therefore unnoticed. Am I correct?

Thanks y'all!


Lee

 

[Sevens]

Lee, some advice first. Carry laws vary radically by state -- your very best place to ask these questions is most likely going to be state-based grassroots pro-gun group. I would help if I could but it's nowhere close to my circles.

With that said...
If Washington is an "at will" employment state then frankly, they can terminate you for excessive nose hair if they wish, so forget about your gun "rights." When you are working for them, you WILL wear a pink shirt if that's what they request and your only "right" is to quit or be terminated.

To your second question, you seem to be suggesting that you wish to break the law. That's a problem in a couple ways... First off, you simply can't be one of the good guys if you are breaking the laws that are an inconvenience. The long road is to work to change the laws. But more to the point, even simple discussion of plans to break the law are verboten on these forums and will not be tolerated. Your thread will be closed.

Don't break laws, even the crappy ones.

 

[JimmyR]

My employer has a "weapon free" policy saying I cannot conceal carry while on the clock and in the workplace, and I believe they are probably able to do so because I'm their employee, but I wanted to confirm: are business (especially Fortune 500 companies) actually able to set that kind of regulation to their employees restricting the right to conceal carry?

Yes, employers can restrict weapons on their property. The 2nd Amendment only states that the State cannot infringe on your right to bear arms- private entities are not subject to that stipulation.

And part two: I read that in Washington state you can not allow weapons on your private property but you have to physically ask someone to leave if they break the rule. So, if a store has a "no guns" sign or something, and I'm carrying, I could legally still enter the store until I got asked to leave, which theoretically would've happen as the gun would be concealed and therefore unnoticed. Am I correct?

According to Handgunlaw.us (a great resource by the way), WA "no guns" signs do not have force of law, which means you cannot be legally punished for carrying a weapon within the premesis. If the property owner asks you to leave, then you must honor that request or be subject to trespassing laws.

http://handgunlaw.us/states/washington.pdf

 

[jmhyer]

+1 for Jimmy's advice. But I would add that many states don't allow the prohibition of firearms in private vehicles on employers' property. In other words, they may be able to prohibit you from carrying into the building, but it may be perfectly legal for you to park your car in the lot and disarm before going inside, securely stowing your firearm in your vehicle while inside the building. You will want to inquire about this for your state.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

According to Handgunlaw.us (a great resource by the way), WA "no guns" signs do not have force of law, which means you cannot be legally punished for carrying a weapon within the premesis.

I don't think this sentence says what you intended. You can be punished for carrying a weapon on premises regardless of the presence of signage. It is just that the signage part of the process.

 

[NINEX19]

I am from WA state with a CPL for @20 years. I know the firearms laws well... as you should too if you intend to carry in this state. Become very familiar with RCW 9.41. Handgunlaw.us is a good resource and seems to be almost 100% correct.

Having said that, JimmyR is correct. Signs in private businesses have no weight of law in Washington. That does not mean that, if caught, you will not loose your job or be prosecuted for trespassing, threatening, harassment, etc.

If you are specifically talking about a situation with your employer, my advise to you would be to leave it concealed in your locked car, per state law, and wear it only before and after work if they have a no weapons policy.

Your choice, but KNOW THE LAW!. Don't take advise from forums where you will get lots of interpretations from people from other states that have different laws than us. You will get too many answers that do not mean anything to your local situation and can be just confusing to you.

 

[NINEX19]

And part two: I read that in Washington state you can not allow weapons on your private property but you have to physically ask someone to leave if they break the rule. So, if a store has a "no guns" sign or something, and I'm carrying, I could legally still enter the store until I got asked to leave, which theoretically would've happen as the gun would be concealed and therefore unnoticed. Am I correct?

Part 2
If you are referring to a business that is open to the public, (store, clinic, mechanic shop, etc) where you are a customer, they can put up as many signs as they want, but there is no law to enforce them. If it is concealed, they will not know. You can by lawfully enter the store, but you are not abiding by their rules. They do not have to ask you to leave in person. They might just call the police. How that will play out is mostly dependent on your actions and reactions. I suggest cooperation and leave.

Not sure where you are in the state, but where I am at, I can only think of one place (a hospital) that has a no firearms sign on an entrance.
Depending on county, people/business are pretty firearms friendly here. Hardly a week goes by where I do not see at least one person open carry in a store of some type. People either ignore holstered guns, or don't even see them. I am in a very liberal county too. Who knows how many concealed carry I pass on a day to day basis. Probably lots.

 

[Guilty]

Yes, if your employer says no guns allowed, leave your handgun secured in your vehicle if you intend to keep your job. Some companies may also have no guns allowed in the parking areas, but honestly, they would have to have a lawful reason to search your vehicle to enforce this policy.
Retail stores, restaurants and other private businesses that post no guns allowed signs carry no weight until you are asked to leave if they notice your concealed firearm and then you are obligated to leave or face trespassing charges.

 

[FITASC]

Some companies may also have no guns allowed in the parking areas, but honestly, they would have to have a lawful reason to search your vehicle to enforce this policy.

That would depend on who the employer is. Friend works at a nuke plant; NO guns at all on the property, even in the parking lot - one of the few exceptions in the state. If they suspect you have a gun, they will call you from your work place and make you open it up. This usually happens right before hunting season when some folks have everything ready to head out after work.......

 

[NINEX19]

Friend works at a nuke plant; NO guns at all on the property, even in the parking lot - one of the few exceptions in the state.

Is this a federal facility? If so, then federal laws apply, which would probably be prosecutable. If private (not sure if there are private nuke plants. Not anything I have had to look into), you have the option to not allow your car searched. Of course, you might loose your job because of it, but you might loose your job anyway if they find a gun and you signed an agreement with the company to not have weapons on any company property, including the parking lot.

 

[Lee6113]

To your second question, you seem to be suggesting that you wish to break the law.

Let me clarify that in no way did I seem to imply that I wished to break the law. That's why I was asking to clarify WHAT the law and other rules were, haha. My apologies if it came across like I was trying to break or bend the law. Not my intention.

I am from WA state with a CPL for @20 years. I know the firearms laws well... as you should too if you intend to carry in this state. Become very familiar with RCW 9.41. Handgunlaw.us is a good resource and seems to be almost 100% correct.

Having said that, JimmyR is correct. Signs in private businesses have no weight of law in Washington. That does not mean that, if caught, you will not loose your job or be prosecuted for trespassing, threatening, harassment, etc.

If you are specifically talking about a situation with your employer, my advise to you would be to leave it concealed in your locked car, per state law, and wear it only before and after work if they have a no weapons policy.

Your choice, but KNOW THE LAW!. Don't take advise from forums where you will get lots of interpretations from people from other states that have different laws than us. You will get too many answers that do not mean anything to your local situation and can be just confusing to you.

I've read the RCW several times (maybe need to read it several times more, haha) and I just wanted to make everything absolutely clear before I start carrying every day.


My employer has no issue with it being stowed in the car, so I will be finding the best way to secure it or install a lock box of some sort so I can still carry while off the clock.


I also believe I will sign my wife and I up for a training class on concealed carry from the Firearms Training Academy of Seattle.

 

[NINEX19]

I've read the RCW several times (maybe need to read it several times more, haha) and I just wanted to make everything absolutely clear before I start carrying every day.


My employer has no issue with it being stowed in the car, so I will be finding the best way to secure it or install a lock box of some sort so I can still carry while off the clock.


I also believe I will sign my wife and I up for a training class on concealed carry from the Firearms Training Academy of Seattle.

Carrying a firearm is a responsibility not to be taken lightly (as I am sure you understand or else you would not be asking questions). I remember being new with a CPL and trying to fully grasp what the laws were. It took along time to pour over all the information out there to fully understand what the boundaries of a CPL were. It's good to ask questions, but verify the answers you get with a reliable source (like the RCW). Laws also change some over time (ie. I-594), so we also need to keep up-to-date.

Firearms training is always a good idea, but I have no experience with Firearms Training Academy of Seattle.

I am glad to see another CPL issued in this state. There is a good Washington State gun forum where more of your specific questions can be answered. Etiquette does not allow me to link you to it or give the name, but you should be able to find it if you search.

 

[JimmyR]

According to Handgunlaw.us (a great resource by the way), WA "no guns" signs do not have force of law, which means you cannot be legally punished for carrying a weapon within the premesis.

I don't think this sentence says what you intended. You can be punished for carrying a weapon on premises regardless of the presence of signage. It is just that the signage part of the process.

I did not word that very well. I was trying to state that there would be no legal consequence for the act of carrying your firearm into an establishment that has a "No Guns" sign in a state where they do not have the force of law, as in this discussion. Not my best word choice...

 

[hartcreek]

Where you carry will depend on you. Federal buildings are a no carry zone however I ship brass and bullets from my local post office and they do not care that I carry so inspite of federal limitations there still is some leeway.

You have to Know RCW 9.41 as cities do put up signs that directly conflict with state law. By knowing the law you can ignore these signs that are not legally placed without flinching.

Courthouses are another example. If there are public offices on the same floor then these public places are open to carry and the courthouse is required by law to have lock boxes for handgun storage when someone with a CWL has to be in court. Just be aware that these boxes are small and carry accordingly.

 

[kraigwy]

For the most part, if you are caught with a concealed weapon in violation of "no carry' signs, you would be told to leave, if you fail to do so you can be charged with trespassing.

However if you are caught carrying a concealed weapon on private property in violation of a 'no carry' sign you need to re-evaluate your method of carry.

Concealed is Concealed and no one should no.

Know your laws.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Where you carry will depend on you. Federal buildings are a no carry zone however I ship brass and bullets from my local post office and they do not care that I carry so inspite of federal limitations there still is some leeway.

What do you mean "in spite of federal limitations there is still some leeway"? The prohibition against firearms on postal service property are clearly spelled out in law. There is no "leeway." Are you saying you have asked the postmaster at your post office if it's okay for you to carry in violation of 39 CFR 232.1? And that he/she said it's okay?

The fact that a particular employee fails to enforce a law on a particular day doesn't mean the violation is "okay." Another employee on another day might decide to enforce the regulation ... at which time you would be facing a felony charge and possible life loss of your RKBA.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/39/232.1

 

[FITASC]

Is this a federal facility? If so, then federal laws apply, which would probably be prosecutable. If private (not sure if there are private nuke plants. Not anything I have had to look into), you have the option to not allow your car searched. Of course, you might loose your job because of it, but you might loose your job anyway if they find a gun and you signed an agreement with the company to not have weapons on any company property, including the parking lot.

Not Federal, investor owned electric company, BUT nuke plants seem to fall under some part of DHS from my understanding.

 

[HighValleyRanch]

All power generating power plants fall under home land security laws.

 

[Limnophile]

Immoral no-gun laws and policies do not merit being obeyed, but one must be aware of the consequences of being caught in such a civil protest. In short, a cost/benefit analysis will likely inform you it is wise to obey such immoral rules.

If a public accomodation is properly signed as not allowing guns, you are trespassing if you enter armed. If you are made and the owner, one of his representatives, or a cop confronts you, you will likely be asked if you saw the sign. The smart response is "No." (Lying to tyrants is not immoral.) You will almost certainly be asked to leave. Failure to leave may result in prosecution for trespass. I've never heard of this happening, but an admission of knowing that you are violating the no-gun policy could result in prosecution for trespass, as could a repeat offense after being confronted before in the same establishment. The full penalty for trespass can be onerus, but I don't think loss of your CPL is on the line.

Under Obamanomics, I can't think of carrying at work in violation of employer policy being wise, unless you are independently wealthy and don't need the job or another should you be fired.

 

[NINEX19]

If a public accommodation is properly signed as not allowing guns, you are trespassing if you enter armed.

Limnophile,
I completely disagree with this statement using WA state law. What is "properly signed"? 1) there is no WA state "gun signage" law. 2) Its a PUBLIC (assuming you mean private business open to the public) place. Anyone is allowed to be there while doing lawful business. 3) You are not trespassing by default in a public place (sign posted or not) unless you are asked to leave for unlawful reasons. If you refuse to leave, than you would be trespassing. This would only apply to a private business open to the public. If we are talking about a truly public place, like a park, sidewalk, etc, than only the police can ask you to move on, or charge you with a crime (loitering, disturbing the peace, threatening, or whatever misc. charge to get you to comply.) Of course, all of this only applies if you exposed your firearm for some reason and someone wanted to make an issue of it. BTW, WA is an open carry state too, so you should be covered (depending on many circumstances) by accidentally exposing a firearm.

The only place in WA state where signs have any weight would be FEDERAL institutions (post offices, federal buildings, nuke plants, etc), non public space in police stations, jails, court houses, schools, and bars (or the portion of a restaurant reserved for a bar), and TSA controlled areas. Even then, the sign is only a reminder of what state law says. The sign itself has no weight. If the sign was not there, you would still be in violation, because you need to know the limits of your CPL. There is a mandated sign for federal property by federal law, but that has nothing to do with state law.

Outside of those, you are free to conceal carry (with your CPL) wherever. Remember, as pointed out above, concealed means CONCEALED. That is what your CPL is for.