Newbie questions...

[Rovert]

Sorry to ask the 'usual questions', but can someone point me in the direction of some sort of newbie's buying guide?

I'm looking for something that talks about the pros and cons of calibers, actions, brands, designs, idosyncracies of different makes, and other nuances that might seem like nothing at first, but become so very much more important when you live with the decision for a while.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Edward429451]

You came to the right place for answers, but need to be more specific about your needs/its intended use, your ideas and thoughts about which way to go and what you like.

Welcome to TFL!

Since you posted on the handgun forum, I'll go out on a limb and say....Buy a 1911 style .45 ACP. An older Colt (The newer ones arent the same quality as the older ones), Springfield Armory makes good 1911's, Kimber makes good 1911's, Glock makes good .45's, and some custom shops too, like Wilson's.

 

[Rovert]

Edward, I apologize. I feel like an idiot. Although I did post here in the handgun section, I should have thought to be more specific. What I did here is like what happens in bladeforums.com when someone asks which gentleman's pocket knife is best.

I am looking for something for HD/personal and also for enjoyable target shooting. Money isn't much of an object. I expect to buy 2 handguns, one large caliber, large frame - probably a S&W, HK, or Glock .45 (the Rugers looked nice, too), and another smaller caliber and easily concealable, perhaps a Walther PPK/s.

What I need to understand is the strategy of how to make a decision. For instance, where do you start with the process? Do you decide first by maker? By caliber? By action?

I've already gone to a range with a close friend, and shot through about 3 trays of 45ACP ball with his Colt. I intend to continue experimenting with different calibers and makers, but was looking for the pros/cons and characteristics of each maker.

For instance, although I surprised my friend with how well I did with the Colt, the gun didn't necessarily fit my hand well. I was not able to operate the magazine release with one hand. For some reason my thumb couldn't apply enough pressure to the mechanism to release the mag.

I think the trick is to start with caliber, since it looks like just about every maker has an offering in various calibers.

If that's true, then it seems to me that there might be too much made of 'stopping power', with the .45 being the 'darling' gun of choice. But part of me thinks that this is just one-upmanship, and a 'fashion' or 'clique-trend' like having a giant SUV when you live in suburbia, and only use it for getting groceries from the supermarket. IOW, if on a scale of 1 to 10, where in almost all cases a 3 will be adequate, if a .45 scores an 8, and a 308 scores a 6, that's still twice as much as normally required.

Sorry about the long message. Hope this rambling makes sense!

 

[Tamara]

A couple of other suggestions I make...

...to first time buyers in the shop.

Will this weapon be primarily for target shooting, "plinking" and general handgun familiarization? If so, a .22 in either a semiautomatic or a revolver makes an outstanding choice; no intimidating blast or recoil to start you off with bad habits like "flinch", cheap ammo for lots of practice with trigger control or sight alignment.

If it needs to perform defense duty as well, a medium-frame six-shot .38 special has most of the same advantages as above, but with a little more recoil and ammo cost. An additional advantage of this type is that if one is on a budget, used ones in the 4" barrel size can still be found relatively cheaply. If you spend a little more money, you can buy one in .357 Magnum, which will allow you to learn on .38's (which it can shoot as well as the .357's), and step up to magnum power when you are ready. This is probably one of the most versatile guns ever made and, while "perfect" for no one use, is pretty good at most everything in a pinch.

If you are considering getting a carry permit ("CCW"), then perhaps a small-frame, "snubnose" 5-shot .38 would be good, although I'd recommend staying away from the aluminum or titanium "airweight" guns for a first gun as their recoil can be unpleasant to a novice shooter who hasn't developed a sense of confidence in their shooting abilities yet.

Welcome to TFL!
Hope this helps.

 

[Rovert]

Tamara, thanks for the reply. I guess our posts crossed. I have no problem with recoil, and can easily become familiar with any weapon. I also shoot target compound bow, where concentration and discipline are critical, since, with a 60# pull, a flinch can set you way off.

That said, I prefer an auto, and might someday move to an area where CCW is permitted (PLEASE don't get me started on NJ handgun laws...) so something smaller, like the PPK would be preferred.

Thanks again!

 

[ahenry]

Welcome Rovert, it is always nice to see a new face around here!

Since you are about to become inundated with opinions I will try to beat others to the punch and offer “my humble opinion” before the rest.

There are a ton of considerations to think of when you look into buying as gun. I think Tamara’s advice is very sound to an extent. Revolvers are outstanding starting guns. They are simple any way you look at it, be it cleaning, operation, loading, etc. They also accomplish their objective (i.e. putting a round down range) arguably better than anything else. However, that doesn’t mean you should get one. I would counsel you to spend a lot of time at the range with as many different guns as you can manage. A perfect example is your experience with a Colt. Many, many people have a passionate affair with a 1911 style pistol and would always point you in that direction, which might very well be a poor choice for you given the difficulty you had releasing the magazine. What I am getting at is, find the gun that fits you best. If you are at all able, try a Glock, HK, Sig, Ruger, S&W (I would encourage you to avoid S&W for political reasons), etc, see how they fit your hand. Make sure you can operate the mag and slide release on a semi. Be sure that the safety lies in a place that is easy for you to swipe off without radically changing your grip. Try to pick a gun that naturally points well for you. In other words, try as many as you can and get the one that you find most comfortable.

Ok, on to caliber as you requested. I tend to agree with your example of caliber choice in theory. However, when it comes to self-defense I want to stack the deck in my favor as much as I possibly can, which is why I will make every effort to have the largest, most powerful cartridge at my disposal when I am going to need it, hence a .45. Since you made no comment about disliking the 45 you shot I am going to assume that you can handle pretty much any caliber out there as far as recoil is concerned. With that said, and with your statement about two guns I would suggest a 357 for much the same reasons Tamara gave. In essence you are getting two guns for the price of one. It also has the major advantage of an easy learning curve, which might be very important for you if you have a wife that isn’t real interested in dedicating the time to mastering something else. Beyond that I really don’t want to suggest something to you. It goes back to finding the gun that fits you best. Ability to use is more important than caliber choice in my mind. You are better off having a 22 that you can hit whatever your target is, then a .50 AE that you only hit your target 50% of the time.

I do apologize for the length, but I wanted you to know some of the logic behind my suggestions so that you would be able to make your own decision with as much of a knowledge base as possible.

 

[Rovert]

AH, thanks for the response. I understand that opinions vary on brand/caliber preferences. I was really looking for the process of how to go about making a decision. The challenge for a newbie is not even knowing what questions to ask - he doesn't even know what he doesn't know.

You do make an excellent point, though. So, you're saying that the primary goal in selecting the right gun is the fit and comfort? Works for me. The problem is that in my area here, no shops allow you to test fire a gun, since that makes it 'used'. Rumor has it there's a shop in PA that rents handguns at their range, so perhaps I can experiment a bit there, before making a final decision.

The recoil on the Colt was no problem at all. Truthfully, I expected far worse. I'm 5-11, 195, but here's what's wierd - my friend is 5-5 and he can eject the mag single handedly. Near as I can figure, I must have a 'fleshier' hand, or he has longer thumbs. No matter, at least we ruled out the design of the Colt for the moment. Plenty of other options, and I'm VERY interested in checking out the Walther P99- that looks nice. I would also welcome you to send me your thoughts on S&W and the reasons for why not, via Email, rather than stirring up a hornet's nest here.

Now that you bring it up, perhaps I asked the initial question badly. Let me see if I can rephrase.

Can you folks list, in order of priority from 1 to 10, the factors you weigh when purchasing a handgun, where #1 is the single most important parameter.

 

[Edward429451]

Hmmmm.. for me it goes like this,

1. Reputation for Reliablity.
2. Reputation for Durability.
3. Ergonomics. (Does it fit me well).
4. Caliber is one I like.
5. Parts/Gunsmiths Availability. (For uncertain future fix-its).
6. Accuracy. (Or can it be made so).
7. Reloadability. (Cheap components? Availability?).
8. No giva the traitors business. (Just S&W at this time).
9. Cost.
10. Will the Wife let me buy ANOTHER one?


I put cost a higher priority than the wife, cause the better the deal/investment, the better chance I have talking her into it! So I've got to know what I'm looking at BEFORE talking to her. Hey, she let me take out a personal loan to buy the M1A!

 

[OF]

My opinions on considerations for buying a handgun:

- Define the role: is it for home defense or CCW? One of each, as you mentioned, is a great idea! Hell, make it two of each! Decide if you want a revolver or an automatic , but try out both when you get the chance.

- Reliability is the #1 most important quality a defensive firearm should have. Stick with the high-end manufacturers, make sure you don't have a lemon, and then test your chosen defensive ammo thoroughly (say, 200rnds of the good stuff without a hitch for starters) and you should be fine.

- Fit is probably #2. Can you shoot and work the gun? Too big? Too small? Doesn't point naturally? Hate the sights? Are you comfortable with the controls? Have arthritis and can't rack the slide? You should really try to get to a range that rents the guns you're looking at and try them out - put at least a couple boxes though each gun and see how it feels.

I would also put action type into the 'fit' catagory. Single action (like the Colt 1911 you tried out) or DA/SA (like the Sigs) or DAO automatic? Manual safety or no?

- Caliber: Basic rule of thumb for defensive guns is to shoot the biggest caliber you can shoot well. Handguns incapacitate via (and this is debated, but the others are just plain wrong ) penetration and shot placement. Anything is better than a sharp stick, but IMHO the top of the heap are .45ACP and 10mm (for autos that is, there are several more great revolver cartridges in that league). If you can't hit anything with a 10mm, step down in power until you can hit and go with that.

I would also give some thought to:

- Warranty: If it breaks, will the manufacturer stand behind it and not give you a hard time?

- Don't buy a new Smith & Wesson....ask Mike Irwin about it.

- How expensive are the magazines? Are full-size (>10rnd) mags available and how much do they cost?

This is all just for starters, too. If you want a quick little list of autos to start off looking at (again, this is just my opinion ):

- Sig Sauers
- Kimber 1911's (base models are a very good value)
- Springfield Armory 1911's (ditto)
- HK USP (tanks) and P7 ($!) series
- Ruger P-series (cheapey)
- Glocks (always good buys used)

Have fun!

- Gabe

PS: The best research tool on the net: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/search.php?s=

 

[FScott]

I'll share my slightly different perspective

I own and have shot a pretty wide array of handguns (inheritances of mine and my brothers in law, as well as several friends) but am still relatively a newbie. Since I did not pick out any of those that I own (other than a Ruger MkII target pistol) I will say that fit does make a pretty big difference in how well I shoot a particular handgun. I'm 5'11" and 195 also, and can control most calibers that I've shot (the largest being a Colt Anaconda .44 mag) but have had the most success consistently with 9mm. I'm now looking for a 9mm for carry, and am trying to figure out how to actually buy a handgun!

The ideal situation is to test fire a wide range of handguns, either through a rental at a range (sometimes difficult depending on where you live) or with friends (I've had more success with the this, you'd be surprised how many people you already know who are shooters but it hasn't come up in conversation). However, sometimes this is not possible. I've learned a lot by looking in shops at various models and doing searches here to gauge the general opinion on them, particularly with respect to reliability as a test shoot or merely handling/dry firing when possible can't really put a handgun through its paces. I've taken a few out of consideration based on that process (Kel-Tec P11, not b/c it's all bad but b/c it is decidedly mixed), and added a few to the mix due to general opinion (S&W 3913 which felt good in the shop, did a search and found generally very favorable opinion). I have resisted the urge to buy a Glock 19 despite universal acclaim (I rented one, shot it fine but it just doesn't fit my hand as comfortably as some others).

Although painstaking, I've made a lot of progress and the list has narrowed!

Good luck.

 

[Rovert]

Wow. Great feedback! Keep those lists coming!!!

As mentioned, money is really not the object. Saving a few bucks on a gun that might not function at that critical moment is like trying to save money by buying a car without seat belts.

I have ruled out revolvers, for many reasons, not the least of which is that just about any auto has more than half again the opportunity for me to get out of a jam. In other words, what I might lack in accuracy, I can make up for with quantity.

So far, I think I'm zeroing in on .45 and 308, for universal availability of ammunition, and diversity of manufacturers, options and accessories.

Anyone know of a range that rents handguns in NJ?

 

[Quartus]

Rovert, I'll add another welcome. You're getting good advice, which you are going to have to sort through. Let me just hit a few points.

1. How do you know you can handle recoil? Shooting a bow well does not equate at all. Yes, the same skills will be used in shooting well, but handling recoil is another matter. If you don't know from having done some shooting of larger calibers, don't assume you can. Unless you already know from experience that you can shoot bigger stuff, start small. The last thing you want is to learn bad habits. If you can afford to buy a .22 now, then move up when you've mastered it, do that.

2. Learn before you buy. Take a class. Local range or NRA, but take a class. You're on track there.

3. For defense, more is better. There is no such thing as a one shot manstopping cartridge in a handgun. You carry a handgun instead of a rifle ONLY because of portability and concealability. You give up a LOT of power and accuracy. Lot's of people carry a full size gun concealed. Carry the biggest you can shoot well and conceal as needed.

4. Watch out for the gun range/ gun store commandos. Just because they work there doesn't mean they know anything. Some do. Some don't.

5. Read. A good book (among many) is John Farnam's, available at http://www.defense-training.com/


Did we overwhelm you yet?



BTW, FScott, size ain't got nuttin ta do wid it. I'm a beanpole, but I can shoot the biggest handguns they make, and enjoy it. I consider a hot loaded .44 mag to be rather mild.

It's all in how. (Let it ride, boss, let it ride!)

 

[Rovert]

Captain, thanks for your advice. Touching on my second post, I said:

I've already gone to a range with a close friend, and shot through about 3 trays of 45ACP ball with his Colt... (and in a later post) The recoil on the Colt was no problem at all. Truthfully, I expected far worse.

I'll check out that book. In fact, now that you mention it, is there any sort of reference that compares different handguns side-by-size, like they do with computers, or is this really a 'whatever fits' scenario, where qualitative issues outweigh functional specs?

Already joined the NRA while we were at the range the other night, intend to take a private lesson. Hey, it's only money, right?

 

[notbubba]

Caliber:
I recomend either 9mm, .40, or .45

These are the most popular calibers for auto loaders for self defence.

9mm is the least expensive to shoot and has the least recoil of the three.

.40 is loved by some and hated by others,recoil tends to be sort of "snapy".

.45 has about the same recoil as the .40 but is more of a "push"

.380 is OK but I wouldn't recomend it
(.308 is a rifle round)

See what feel good in your hand ,shoot as many as you can.
Then ask us about which ever gun you like and someone here will hate it and tell you what you should like

 

[jason h]

As far as finding a source for comparing firearms objectively, good luck. Most gun mags just do reviews on firearms to make money, in other words, they have never reviewed a gun they didn't like. Gun tests will run articles where they will compare four or five different handguns that all sort of fit into the same catagory. They are fairly objective since they don't have advertising and buy the guns themselves. Unfortunately they only have a sample size of one, so if they happen to get a lemon, the test is completely useless. The best place to get somewhat objective info on comparison of different guns is right here or on any other gun forum.

I am one who doesn't really buy into the revolver as a first gun idea. If one is even mildly technically adept, one shouldn't have any problem with operating a auto. These are pretty simple machines when you really get down to it. If you can handle a .45 then I think that this caliber would make a great choice for a fullsize defensive handgun. For CCW, caliber choice may need to take second seat to ease of concealment.

If one was looking at getting a fullsize .45, here are some choices to get ya started:

HK USP
Glock 21
Sig P220
CZ 97
Ruger P90 or P97
EAA Witness
1911 type handgun (obviously you may have already ruled this one out)

If money is not a concern, stick with brands known for quality such as HK, Sig, Glock, Walther and CZ. You mentioned that you might be interested in a PPK for CCW. This pistol design seems to have a reputation for not being very reliable, and .380, while somewhat adequate for personal defense, is not the best choice.

If you can't test fire all them, at least go to the stores and check them all out. While one must be weary of a gun store commando, there are many dealers out there that do have a wide knowledge of firearms and could probably be of some help.

 

[Quartus]

Rovert, I think Mr. Farnams book (and Quips) is going to be the closest thing to an objective look at calibers you are going to find. It's a subject that arouses a lot of passion. You'll find people who are complete 9mm fanatics, total .40 fanatics, and then there are we objective, reasonable, and absolutely right .45 shooters.

Seriously, there's a lot of bigotry in the matter. The much respected Col. Jeff Cooper, for example, has a completely closed mind on the subject. (To say such a thing is heresy, "yet, it moves".) If it is not a .45, it is not a defesive handgun!

Well, that's garbage. So you'll need to do some VARIED reading. Anything by Massad Ayoob is worth reading.

Glad you found the .45 easy to shoot, and sorry I skipped that in your post. I've never been able to fathom someone finding the .45 hard to shoot because of the 'recoil', but I recognize that some do.

(But then, I find the .454 Casull just hot enough to be fun. And a 45-70 on a TC/Contender is MORE fun.)

I'll echo jason's comments, en toto. Except of course, that there's really only ONE .45, the 1911.

Unless you have an absolute need for maximum concealability, forget the .380. You can get some pretty small 9mms.

 

[Rovert]

Cap'n, no problem. There's a lot to read here, and in multipe posts, so it's easy to miss. Besides, I'm sure you get about 6 of these questions per week.

So far, I'm inclined to a .45, and it sounds like a 9 might be the logical choice for what ultimately could be a CCW, since it's got more stopping power than a 380 and can be had in roughly the same size. It's not about the absolute smallest size I was after, since a .22 is VERY small, but only has effective stopping power if your assailant is Rocket J. Squirrel.

That said, it seems like the decision process looks something like this:

1) Quality/Reputation (reliability)
2) Fit/Comfort
3) Parts and accessory availability
4 - 9) Amalgam of subjective factors relating to fit, finish, operation, and other model/maker-specific idiosyncracies.
10) Price (the last factor for me). Since I'm not married, I don't have to do the same kind of "Wife Math" my friends do. I often chuckle when they ask me to help them prepare the multiple choice rationalizations. "Honey, if I buy this: a) We can save 'x' over 'y' amount of time. b) It will be worth 'x' in 'y' amount of time. c)It's really good for the kids because 'x' and 'y' (usually the "quality time" defense works best in this scenario)

Some questions have come to mind, like: Will someone send me via Email the 'readers digest' version of why not to buy a S&W? Why is Ruger only rarely mentioned? What do you all think about the P99, and is it worth the asking price?

Thanks for everyone's help. Looks like this week will be spent finding a range in NJ that rents.

 

[FScott]

Captain,

You're absolutely right about size, build and felt recoil. I'm pretty stout but am also a newer shooter, which is why I stick with 9mm as I haven't had the best luck with .40 or .45 (for the time being at least). I've seen some reed thin guys at the range launching hand cannons with startling accuracy. All what you're comfortable with, which does not correlate to size. On rereading my thread I realize I wasn't very clear on this point. Certainly lots of opinions and adherents to all the various calibers.

I also agree with caution regarding shop owners advice. There are some really helpful and knowledgeable staff out there, but I've had quite a few push a particular model (often more expensive than what I came in to look at) even if I indicated it didn't feel very good in my hand. If it doesn't feel right, regardless of the reputation and what the shop owner says, steer clear. There are enough well made firearms that finding a reliable handgun that fits you well may take some work but is worth the effort.

Let us know how you progress.

FScott

 

[Dave R]

Rovert, just a few things to add.

Find a range in your area that rents pistols. Take a few weeks and try a half-dozen or so. You will start to develop some preferences pretty soon.

If you don't reload ammo (yet), there is a significant economic advantage to 9mm. Its such a common caliber (virtually all armed forces use it) that it tend to have the cheapest ammo. I can't remember the last time I paid more than $5.50 for a box of 50 (for plinking ammo). There are also many quality defensive ammo choices for it.

 

[MatthewM]

Caliber: You MUST buy a .22 for yourself to practice with and for taking along kids, new people, etc. The cost of shooting is almost zero. You are OBLIGATED to take people with you to the range who have never shot.... A top choice there would be a Ruger Mark II 5.5" bull barrel. I just bought the 6 7/8" "Slabside" model.

9mm is plenty big, common, available in most guns and ammo is HALF the cost of .45.

.45 is a great stopper and is much easier to shoot than .40. I originally wanted .40 but found out I definitely don't want one. I bought the Kimber Stainless Gold Match for $1050 and everyone who has shot it has hit much better than the various .22, .32, .40, .357sig, etc we have tried.

Brand: You get what you pay for. Ask others here. Above $800 you get better, but less value for your money. Kimber & springfield are great for .45. Too many choices in 9mm for me to help you. Everyone here will tell you to go to an indoor rental range and try quite a few.

For range work, the longer the barrel, the easier to hit the target. The lighter the trigger, the easier to hit bullseyes. The heavier the gun, the less the recoil. "Compensators" look sexy but make the gun MUCH louder and the increased noise & muzzle flash are far worse than the reduced recoil. All this is the opposite of what you want in concealed carry! So, now you need three guns!!! And that is just to start...