New thought on .38WC for defense

[OkieCruffler]

I had a patient walk in a few nights ago with a gunshot wound to the right shoulder. I would guess that it was a near contact wound from the amount of burn around the area. Bullet went thru the muscle but veered off the shoulder joint and just skidded along the shoulder blade acroosed the rib cage, breaking the tip from one vertibra and coming to rest just under the skin on top of the left shoulder blade. Got the xray and there it sat, a perfect wadcutter. Suspected weapon was a Ruger SP101 with a 4 inch barrel loaded with S&B wadcutters. For no real reason, I had always thought that that heavy flat ended bullet would break the first bone it hit, I guess I was wrong. Victim was not disabled by the shot, drove himself to the ER, and walked around dripping blood on my floor until I threatened to tackle him.
Now I have no doubt that if the shot had been square to the chest he would have come in via EMS, or if it had been to the brain pan probably wouldn't have made a stop at my fine establishment at all ( I've always thought these discussions about bullet type really boiled down to where you inserted it anyway), but I was still surprised at the total lack of effect.

 

[Hal]

Pick up Toto.
Click heels.
Repeat after me.

"There's no magic bullet."
"There's no magic bullet."
"There's no magic bullet."

Ok, sorry to try to make light of the serious circumstance,,well,,not 100% sorry since I let it stand. You say the WC was clear on the Xray right? That has to mean that there wasn't any expansion since it would be virtually impossible to distinguish a SWC from a WC if the nose was expnaded. If that's the case, it sounds like too little velocity is the culprit more than the bullet shape.

Not to sound grotesque here, but what kind of shape was the muscle tissue in? Did you recover the bullet? Any chance to weigh it or find out from the PD (I'm assuming since it's a GS they took it for evidence)what the slug weighed? Any signs of drug and/or alcohol use in the shootee(Won't call him a victum because of your hint )?

 

[Tamara]

The only advantage to the WC, to me, seems to be that it's somewhat less likely to just glance off than a SWC or LRN.

 

[juliet charley]

An interesting anecdote, but it would be silly to draw any sweeping (or any) conclusions from it.

At best, you had very bad placement.

There is no indication (or reason to assume) any other bullet of any other calibre could have done better.

There is no indication (or reason to assume) that additional velocity would have helped at all (and could have just as easily been counterproductive).

There was good penetration.

In fact, it sounds like it was just a centimeter or two from the spine--which would have resulted in a "One Shot Stop."

 

[AC]

This is interesting. I know you are purposely speaking in layman's terms but if you could go into a bit more detail it would be appreciated.

Where exactly on the shoulder did it hit and could you tell from what angle?

Was there visual evidence in the skin/muscle of the shoulder of a cookie cutter effect? In other words did it chop a gaping hole compared to other GSWs you have seen?

Could you tell how squarely the bullet hit? If it, for instance, caught the rearward convexity of the humeral head it makes sense that it might skid around the back, but if it caught that convexity squarely near its apex I'd expect it to chop bone. Any comments on this or was it hard to tell? The way you described the wound I'm visualizing that is slid under the shoulder blade (anterior surface) is that correct, or did it go around the posterior surface?

 

[OkieCruffler]

Sorry, didn't mean to allude that I thought there was a majik bullet, and if there was I doubt it would come from a .38. I've always believed that the size of the bullet had less to do with stopping than where you parked the little critter (see my complete post above) But since there had been so much discussion on here about the wadcutter from a self defense stand point, I thought it was whimsical when this piece of humanity came to me. I still think that the wadcutter could very well be a viable self defense round.

For those really interested, the entrance wound displayed the cookie cutter aspect that I expected it would. It struck at almost a 90 degree angle to the deltoid and struck the posterior edge of the greater tubercle of the humerus. My therory is that it then spun 180 degrees before going under the scapula (anteriorly). Then it took a small chip from the spinous process of the T4 vertebrae then ended up lodged just under the skin on the posterior side of the left scapula. Patient still had full movement of both upper extremities. Projectile was grossly undeformed upon removal. Suspected weapon was found wrapped in a brown paper bag in a trash can in the park where the shooting occured still loaded with 2 fired shell casings and 3 live rounds. No charges filed so far due mainly to the fact that the patient refuses to identify the shooter. I would doubt if he'll be the last GS I see directly connected to this little spat.

 

[Dave T]

The most viable argument I have seen for using a full wadcutter in the 38 Special specified a 2" barrel. And then the argument is reinforced when weapon in question is an Airweight or something similar. A number of the ballistics testers have stated in print that the various hollowpoints (even +Ps) do not reliably expand from abreviated barrels. In the worst cases they don't expand at all.
The argument goes that with target watcutters you get reasonable penetration (the opening thread seemed to imply a lot of meat was passed through) with a full "38" caliber sized hole to promote leakage. The added benifit is that most anyone can learn to control wadcutters and consequently will practice, improving their chances of hitting the intended target in the most effective location.

 

[Jim March]

I once bought some range reload wadcutter 38s, that turned out to be fully copper jacketed - but also real wadcutters.

Now, you could load those up past 1,000fps without leading the barrel. Betcha at 1,500fps from a .357 they'd be hell on wheels .

 

[Jato]

Okie, keep up the good posts (I also read your birdshot post). I would rather hear about actual incidents than rely on gelatin testing. Although I don't understand all of that anatomy jargon.

 

[joeoim]

Wadcutters

Interesting post Oakie. I used wadcutters and semiwadcutters 20+ years ago before I started handloading because they were cheap. I would occasionly have to shoot a dying cow ( 10 to 20 a summer) and I found the same thing you did. Wadcutters leave a small neat hole and do little damage, but do pennetrate well. I quit useing them because they didn't kill well. I don't remember much about them other than they were 158gr .38 special (and a few .357) out of a Ruger Security Six with 6" barrel. I've shot cows 3 or 4 times in the head with no visual effect other than a little trickle of blood from each hole, and this creature is still looking at me. Some times it would knock them down and they would lay there looking at me till one finally did the job. Sometimes (after 2 or 3 shots) they run off and I,d have to run them down to finish the job. They didn't have the killing effect a "semi jacketed hollow point" or "semi jacketed soft point" did( shooting from a horse). A 4 or 6 shot kill is gruesome no matter what kind of misery the animal is in.(Sorry for the graphics) From my experiences I'd never use a wadcutter of any kind of carry. They make small neat holes. For personal protection I want something that makes a mess. YMMV

 

[juliet charley]

Funny, we used to dispatch large steers with a single shot from a .22 Long Rifle when we slaughtered them. I guess placement has lot to do with it.

Surely, you weren't trying to drop a full-grown cow (even a sick or crippled one) with a heart/lung shot from a .38 were you? If you were, I doubt anything you used, short of heavy-loaded heavy-weight .357 Magnum hunting bullets would have been very effective.

 

[Al Thompson]

Are the S&B wadcutters pure lead or FMJ? I've been shooting some Atlanta Arms 148 WCs that are FMJ. Good accuracy and seemingly good velosity.

From the penetration, it looks like actually a decent load. FWIW, I've never seen a handgun bullet produce much damage - just not enough DV. Much closer in effects to an arrow wound (without the tissue destruction).

 

[OkieCruffler]

"Okie, keep up the good posts (I also read your birdshot post). I would rather hear about actual incidents than rely on gelatin testing."

Actual incidents are often more confusing that al the gelatin test. I've seen alot of really strange things happen with GSWs and I'm pretty green when it comes to ER med (I'm a pediatric nurse by trade). Stopping power is more or less a crap shoot, but one thing I have noticed, good shot placement takes alot of the luck out of the equation. The only living things I've ever used a wadcutter on is rabbits, and it seemed to work on them just dandy. I still think that with good shot placement the .38 WC would do the job, especially one of these fmjwc pushed to a bit more velocity.

 

[joeoim]

Shot placement

Juliet These were head shots with the animal looking dead on. And shooting off a horse I suppose placement had some bearing, but switching to the softer jacketed bullets rarely took more than one. [ I do believe if you fail to kill an animal with the first shot (head) they are harder to kill ]. I only relayed these personal experiences because there are better bullets out there than wadcutters for selfdefence load.

 

[krept]

Thanks for the info, always interesting to read about actual GS wounds.

 

[Kframe]

Joeoim, Having never shot a cow or horse I may be wrong, but isnt' the front of the skull the thickest bone?
I would guess that shooting a cow in the ear, kinda down and forward; or standing to the side of it and shooting at the base of the skull/neck junction aiming down and forward would be more likely to get to the brain/brainstem.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

I do keep a gun in the truck for dispatching flopping roadkill, but haven't ever needed it for bigger than dogs and coons.
Where would be the best place to shoot a not-quite-dead deer? (.38 or 9mm)

Thank you, -Kframe

 

[Johnny Guest]

Back while I was in college - - -

I worked as an Inhalation Therapy Tech at the City-County Hospital in Fort Worth. Between treatments, hung out in ER a lot. I was present when a middle aged man walked in the door one night, smelling strongly of beer, with a lot of blood on face and chest. Admitting clerk took some information.

Patient: I been in a fight. Can I sit down?

Clerk: Sure. Right over there. (Looked like a bad bloody nose.) Do you hurt anywhere else?

Patient: No, just my chest.

Long story shorter, the blood on his face was from wiping his face with bloody hands. He had five bullets in his chest. He bublled a little but wasn't even coughing.

I was friends with the chief X-Ray tech and was there when the films were processed. Five .38 LRN bullets scattered around his chest--All in thoracic cavity--Not a one below the diaphragm. No heart hits, though. The focus was sharp enough to see that the bullets were too short for .38 Spl 158s. Probably .38 S&W 146 gr, and the lube grooves were visible on two of the bullets. ER personnel were still stabilizing him and calling in the surgery crew when I was summoned back to third floor.

Next night, I learned that the patient was "resting comfortably following surgery," and would probably be discharged in a few days. Never heard what happened to the other guy.

Best,
Johnny

 

[joeoim]

Kframe Behind the ear is best IMHO, problem is they are usually looking right at you. Then I imagine an x on their forehead going from horn to eye. shoot just above the middle of x.
If one don't do it you are probably a little low.

 

[4V50 Gary]

Aren't lead hollow base wadcutters suppose to be inverted when loading into the case? Still, there is no magic bullet and shot placement is everything.

 

[Kframe]

Gary, the HBWC's can be inverted, but not if you're going through any real bone.
The expansion is amazing, one that I recovered from wet newspaper mics out at .728, a near double diameter. That was loaded to about 750fps.
I have heard of people using this for hunting, but only on small game like jackrabbits and for varmint control on coons and skunks.
Well, I suppose if you're using a .38 on game it automatically means small-game, as it's not big-game legal.
But, for pest/livestock control, I myself wouldn't want to use it (reversed HBWC) on anything heavier than a medium dog.

Just my .02, -Kframe

(Oh, and those reversed HBWC's will begin to tumble past 25yards or so. Depends on the gun and the rifling though.)