New Kel-Tec P11 9mm -- Outstanding!

[Blackhawk]

I just got a new P11. Overall impression -- outstanding!

Trigger action is buttery smooth and measures at 8.0 +/- 0.1 pounds out of the box. Trigger travel start to release is exactly 0.65" instead of 1 inch as seems to be everybody's erroneous opinion. The ONLY problem that prevent's the gun from being perfect out of the box is the trigger overtravel. That causes the sight picture to change since trigger tension is suddenly released and muscles can't do that. The simple trigger stop made of an eraser, blackened, and superglued on corrects that perfectly! With dummy rounds (Kel-Tec says don't dry fire), the sights stay dead on through out the trigger pull. This is verified by a steady laser dot on the wall using a laser pointer attached to the pistol.

I see no need for the highly touted Fluff & Buff at www.ktog.org as every moving part of the pistol is smooth and tight. Visual inspection of the chamber, ramp, and other moving parts shows that they already have a very fine gound finish although not polished to a mirror finish. (BTW, this pistol is brand new from Kel-Tec, and I was the first one to lay a paw on it.)

Loaded with 10+1 Winchester 115 gr. FMJs, the pistol weighs 21.7 ounces, or if you're not comfortable with one in the pipe, it weighs 21.3 ounces with just a full magazine. Empty with no magazine, it weighs 14.6 ounces. A full magazine weighs 6.7 ounces.

The serial number of this pistol is 112xxx, and maybe Kel-Tec is making them a little heavier now. They still say the empty pistol weighs 14 ounces and a loaded magazine weighs 5.6 ounces for a total of 19.6 ounces instead of the 21.3 ounces. I'd rather think that than the obvious conclusion that they fudge on the light side for marketing purposes. Then again, maybe their scales aren't as accurate. Mine are calibrated to 1/10 of an ounce.

Not much left for me to do now except see if the machine shoots....

 

[RH Factor]

Congrats!

I got mine a few weeks ago and did all the things that KTOG suggested....it has become my new carry gun when weight or size is a problem....500 rounds through it and not one failure. Try the trigger shoe...aluminum no grooves..then polish it to a high gloss...it makes the pull amazing.

 

[OkieCruffler]

I think most of the fluff & Buff was needed on the earlier pistols, the first one I had was pretty rough. Their QC seems to have gotten much better as of late. The only thing i did to my current P-11 was a quick polish to the feed ramp. So which finish did you go with?

 

[Blackhawk]

Blued with black grip. Beauty is as beauty does!

I've taken it completely apart and thoroughly inspected it. KT's QC is excellent judging by this pistol. I'll probably do the F&B just for fun even though it doesn't need it.

 

[OkieCruffler]

Mine was blued, but since I carry with the clip, I was having some problem with rust, so I got her parkerized. Their alot of fun to play with and the accessories are nearly endless. I'm ordering a new mag, finger extension, and trigger shoe this week. And I'm on the look out for a P-40.

 

[Blackhawk]

Did you ever hear of an outfit named Wolfe Springs? Seems like they're supposed to have any kind of spring you want.

The P11 has an overkill spring on the firing pin to compensate for the overkill hammer spring, which is what makes the trigger heavy, even though mine is a slick 8#.

I also heard that P40 recoil springs in a P11 make it a real pleasure to shoot.

You're right! It is fun to play with so I doubt that it's going to be a "load it and tuck it away" piece.

 

[OkieCruffler]

I've got a set of Wolfe 22# recoil springs in my P-11 and it really tamed down the recoil. They send a stiffer firing pin spring with the recoil springs. I've heard that softening the firing pin spring can cause slam fires, tho' I have no experience with that. As of this weekend I have 11,700 rds thru mine, and one of te guys on K-tog swears he has 60,000+ thru his. Alot of people bad mouth these pistols, but I've got two friends with pistols identical to mine and we haven't had any trouble with them.

 

[Blackhawk]

Have you got Wolfe's web page address, by any chance?

Slam banging is an interesting thought ... P11 on full auto!

 

[DPSproles]

Boy am I impressed!

Get aload of this deal I picked up this weekend at the Nashville gunshow. I was looking for a NEW hard chrome p-11, but saw very few p-11a at all. A few new blued, and at (much to my suprise) decent prices...when i found this dealer with a use p-11 marked $189. I thought about it...buying a used gun from a guy I doidn't know...ya' know, things like that! I thought about it and remembered about KT's hard chrome "upgrade" for $20.00. So, i thought I could get the hard chrome all the mags and other parts I wanted (clip, extensions, hard chrome, etc) for LESS than a new one...so I bought it.

I came home lastnight, emailed KT re: their upgrade and shiping info, getting a manual, shipping parts, etc and much to my pleasure, they called me today. They not only called me ONCE on my cell phone, but they followed up on my office number to make sure they contacted me like i asked them in my email.

Cliff left me a message and I calle dhim back in short order. I asked about the upgrade, and he said $20 send it to him FedEx/UPS and they would have it back to me before Christmas. I asked about ordering other parts and for a new lighter trigger and he asked the serial# of my "new" gun. 16xxx and he said, "send me the whole gun for a total "upgrade"." I was floored! I said, "the whole gun?" He told me I would basically get a brand new gun for the $20.00 upgrade! How is THAT for service? I was absolutley exstatic and could hardly believe it. I asked him if they would give a "once over" for me, and he said that they would do more than that for me...PLUS ship back to me all my parts (extra) and a manual no charge.

I have heard about how awesome their customre service is/was. but NEVER did I expect it to be like THIS!

( haven't even fired the first round through it and am a HUGE fan of Kel-Tec. Keep it up folks!

David

 

[Blackhawk]

David,

I've had 3 direct contacts with Kel-Tec so far, and I'm equally impressed with the company. It seems like making great products at reasonable prices while giving outstanding service is a labor of love for them!

 

[OkieCruffler]

Wolfe springs can be found at www.gunsprings.com

 

[Blackhawk]

Thanks, John. They've got recoil, magazine, and firing pin springs for Kel-Tecs. Wish they had hammer springs for them.

I stretched the hammer spring by 0.150", which makes the trigger pull 6-1/2 pounds. That makes a nearly perfect trigger for the P11 without the trigger shoe!

I also shortened the firing pin spring by 9 coils, which is 0.400". The firing pin spring requires about 3# to overcome it and allow the FP to contact the primer. Since the FP weighs about 0.06 ounces, that would require deceleration of about 821 gs to get it there. That's not going to happen from recoil or dropping it from a tall building. The problem may be that the hammer won't have enough force to overcome the FP spring and ignite the primer. The FP impression made on a new snap cap suggests that it will.

Range testing is next. I'll load magazines with two rounds to test slam banging, but I think that's extremely unlikely. I'm inclined to test how weak the FP spring can be and still prevent primer contact on subsequent rounds.

To test for light strikes, I'll compare the primer impression depths from multiple rounds at different trigger spring tensions. By inserting spacers under the hammer spring pin to increase the spring's tension, I can bracket what tension's needed to get the "factory" primer impression.

In any event, I've already got new springs coming from Kel-Tec....

 

[OkieCruffler]

Sounds like an interesting experiement. I tend to follow your logic and don't think the lighter firing pin spring will cause a slam fire, but I suppose anything is possible. Never thought of stretching the hammer spring to lighten the trigger pull, but the trigger pull is about the same as all the DA revolvers I've ever used, so I haven't given it much thought. Maybe I'll get me some new parts and start to play some more.

 

[Blackhawk]

In examining the firing mechanism vis-a-vis the FP and hammer springs, I've got some additional comments.

The FP spring has to resist the FP momentum on slide return, but a far greater force is the returning hammer preload against the FP caused by the hammer spring.

That's about 3# with the original spring, and the original FP spring resistance to primer contact is about 5.9#. With the lengthened hammer spring and shortened FP spring, the forces are about 1# and 3# respectively. Assuming that the safety factor is 2:1, the FP spring could be further shortened so its resistance is 2#, which would increase the force applied to the FP when the trigger is pulled making light strikes less likely and maintaining the safety factor against slam firing.

The firing stability of the laser dot with a 6.5# trigger compared to the 8# trigger plus the feel, comfort, etc., is so much improved that I'm mystified as to why KT doesn't offer the two lighter springs to users -- sort of like Kahr did with their "Elite" trigger. KT could charge many times what the springs would cost, and it would be a "must have" modification. Time for me to dry fire (snap caps) 10 aimed shots with the 8# trigger is about 4" compared with 2" with the 6.5# one. Just think, a DAO P11 target pistol in a class of its own!

I'm posting all this for the record and to hopefully induce those smarter than I to straighten me out if I'm wrong....

 

[RH Factor]

OK..so I'm a dummy

I try to follow you guys when you start talking about springs and pull and pounds....I love my P11 and would love to make it even better...so when your done experimenting, would you tell me what to do in dummy terms. Thanks for bearing with us amateurs....That's why I like TFL

 

[Blackhawk]

RH Factor,

At present, I'm planning to post the modifications I make and what happens with them, but I'm sure not going to tell anybody what to do! ;-)

We're all amateurs even though some of us are older and some of us get paid for doing stuff we don't have much of a clue about.

On the modification subject and for the record: Last night as I was drifting off to sleep, I figured out a fast and painless way to lessen the hammer spring tension without modifying it. To get a 6.5# trigger, replace the anchor pin with a pin that has a depression in the middle of 0.150". In profile, it would look something like this -----v----- but without the v sticking up above the horizontal tails. The plastic plug would probably have to be relieved, but it should work.

 

[Blackhawk]

The modified hammer spring pin trick works like a charm! The result is a PERFECT 6.5# trigger. It's so simple and easy to do, I'm amazed that the modification isn't as well known as the eraser trigger stop.

Here's what I did:

Tools needed: vernier machinist's caliper, small needle nose pliers, needle nose pliers, 15/32" drill bit, diagonal wire cutters, long (3-4") 5/16" hex head cap screw (use as a tool to remove the hammer spring retaining cap from the grip -- not needed for reassembly).

Materials: Malleable hard steel wire of about 0.050" - 0.052" diameter (I used a Jumbo Paper Clip -- 2-1/8" long -- for a prototype intending to make a permanent one from 0.050" stainless welding rod, but I don't see a need to replace the prototype!)

Use the drill bit as a mandrel, and bend a 1-1/2" or so length of the wire over the shank to make a U right in the middle. Make the U tight with the legs straight. The legs will be bent to be 90 degrees in each direction forming the uncut pin, but this is the critical part. The inside of the U should be exactly 0.150" from the bottom side of each leg after they're bent. In effect, the installed pin will "lengthen" the hammer spring by 0.150". With the U in the center of the length, shorten each leg so the overall length of the pin is just over 1/2" and looks sort of like this ---U--- but with the top of the U at the same height of the two horizontal legs.

Disassemble the pistol including removing the frame from the grip. Remove the hammer spring retaining cap from the grip so you can separate the grip from the frame assembly. Remove the original hammer spring pin and separate the plastic cap from the spring. Relieve the sides of the spring hole in the cap so the new pin will fit in the cap. Reassemble. The trigger resistance will progressively increase as you pull it until it gets to the release point at which it will be 6.5#.

As noted earlier, I also shortened the firing pin spring by 9 coils, but that is only to ensure that the primer strike from the hammer is heavy enough to ensure ignition with any ammo as it is approximately the same as with the unmodified hammer spring pin. If you do that and get a spare firing pin spring, you can easily restore the pistol to its original specifications.