New frustrations....

[margiesex]

Hey fellas:

As you know, I've been doing this for a long time, but recently, I have run into 2 issues that are frustrating to beat the band.

I use RCBS carbide dies. Recently, I have noticed that occasionally (maybe 3-4 per 100) - when I dump them out of the catch bin to tumble them, I'll see some with the primer half out. Yes, the pin is plenty long enough past the case when in the resizer die. It seems almost like the pin draws the primer back up partially into the die??? There's no lube due to the carbide...ever happen to you? And before Ebay stoppe selling brass I literally did 10's of 1000's with no problem....bugs me. They are easily pulled out with a pair of pliers, so that tells you there is enough hanging out to grip. Suggestions?

Secondly, same die set. Yesterday I started running through a batch of 9's to get ready to tumble. I noticed as I was decapping, resizing and then expanding that some (again not many, but noticeable amount) were coming out of the expander die with a non-uniform expansion - a noticeable "bulge" about 1/3 of the distance around the case, and at about the location where the base of the bullet would be after seating.

I took off the die - thoroughly cleaned it - replaced - kept happening. Now, I'm thinking that some of these cases have just had it and are starting to give way, but is that it? There are no cracks, etc. that I can see.

I'd be interested if anyone else has had these issues.

Thanks and God bless.

Margiesex

And remember: Hug your God and your guns - 'cause he's coming for them both, and soon!

 

[Sevens]

1st issue-- with the primers being drawn back in, I know exactly what you are seeing and saying and I am experiencing it too. I have a couple theories:

--I think the decapping rod/pin may be a touch distorted at the point which isn't allowing it to make a clean break from the primer which gets crushed around the end of the pin when it does it's job. For an RCBS die, should be an easy fix since you typically have a slew of pins as extras. With my Lee dies, I have to swap out the whole rod... which is no big deal, I just haven't bothered yet. Of course... this is just one theory, unproven.

--It's only happening to me in .38 Special loads in nickel brass. I use two different head stamps in .38 Spl nickel (old R-P and Winchester) and I think it may be a combo of a primer that's not very hard to remove, so it doesn't "pop" with perhaps the relatively light pressure loads that don't contribute much to the primer being locked in there tightly... so the primer guts get squashed around the end of the pin and it gets drawn back in to the pocket, ever so slightly.

It's annoying. I'll probably start with swapping decappers. But even if my thoughts don't help, at least I "get" what you are saying.

As for your second problem, I haven't experienced that. I would start by sizing some well-known brass that's once fired and compare. If there are any questions as to how well it's working, I'd simply contact RCBS immediately. It's nothing for them to simply send you another die, probably free, to cure the problem. They have a great reputation for doing exactly that, no reason you shouldn't exercise it if you believe the die is what's at fault here.

 

[Shoney]

I've also had the primer/pin issue, but it was only on military brass, where the crimp was reamed with a camphoring tool. This was before I knew the pocket swagers were available.

Is this by chance military brass?

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Maybe you have the answer to the age old question:

How many rounds does it take to wear out a carbide die?

 

[margiesex]

I was thinking...

You know sometimes talking something through (writing?) helps sort it out.

I was thinking about this issue after I wrote (I was decapping another 500 or so) - and I came to the conclusion that the pin may indeed have something to do with it - I would imagine that after 1,000's of repetitive "punches" the steel takes on a "point" or lack thereof - and if that is about the right size to force it's way in, as it caps, it would take some force to dislodge it, no?

Well, unless I find out other wise, I'll adjust to that.

The second issue though has me bummed.

I'm going to re-do some that bulged - reset the expander plug, etc. - aka play with it a bit with the cases I find bulged.

Maybe - wore out an expander die? Possible.....

And, if I stay whacked, I will contact RCBS about it. They have been awesome to deal with in the past.

Thanks guys - and God bless.

Margiesex

And remember: Hug your God and your guns - 'cause he's coming for them both, and soon!

 

[GeauxTide]

If that few per hundred, what about case length?

 

[ZeSpectre]

I run into the same decapping problem but only with 9mm. No idea why.

 

[Unclenick]

Margiesex,

The first problem is your decapping pin extension. If the primer sticks, as happens with military primers due to the crimp, or with tight primer pockets, or if one side of the primer slips out before the other (and cases with slightly out-of-round pockets are especially prone to this; it only takes half a thousandth or so difference), the pin may not extend far enough to knock it clear. You usually get a dimple in the primer center where the cup was deformed by the pressure of the pin at its center. When you slide such a case back out of the shell holder, that re-seats the spent primer part way, giving the impression it was sticking to the pin and being drawn back in. The fact you could slide the case out of the shell holder without the protruding spent primer catching in the hole through its center of the holder proves it was never pushed out far enough. A longer pin or decapping separately with a universal decapping die, like the Lee, will put an end to that.

The second problem occurs because your bullet is not straight in the case. A bullet seating stem with its nose custom shaped to match the bullet will help correct this. I've often thought bullet mold makers should offer a seating die that you could engage a sizer-lubricator nose punch to for seating would be a money maker. I've had to turn a few on my lathe for the purpose. The only difference from a nose punch is that I add a hole through the center to let lube build-up escape.

Short of making a special seater stem, your next best move is to replace your expander die with a Lyman M die, or one of its copycats. The M die is available with inserts for several calibers from MidwayUSA.com and other suppliers. Redding expanders use the same profile, as do some others. It puts a small step in the case under the flare that holds the bullet straight up and down as the seater stem contacts it, so the bullet starts in straight even if the seater only touches it at one circumference. While a sized case will always have a slight bulge at the bullet base because it is sized down smaller than the bullet in order to hold it, that ring should be uniform all the way around. The M die will make it much closer to that.

 

[Tex S]

I am going to have to politely disagree with most of yall's theories on the primers being partially reseated. This has happened to me and I think that the decapping pin (if slightly off center) gets wedged between the anvil legs in the primer cups. The primer then becomes lightly "stuck" onto the decapping pin, and when you reverse the handle on the press the primer is semi-seated again.

I saw this happen when using a Forster Bushing Bump Die. It has a rubber washer that lets the spindle that holds the decapping pin "flex" a little bit. To fix the problem I simply pushed the decapping pin over until it was directly in the middle of the die, thus hitting the anvil directly in the center so the decapping pin no longer gets stuck between the anvil legs.

I am not familiar with RCBS dies, but maybe the decapping pin is slightly off center or bent.

Just my theory folks, but I haven't had the problem since I did what I described above. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense; 3 or 4% of Margie's primers were being reseated. I bet that the odds of the decapping pin perfectly wedging between the anvil legs is about 3 or 4% (a.k.a. pretty rare!). Sometimes the pin will directly hit an anvil leg and not hang up. Sometimes it will split the legs and not get hung up. Sometimes the moon and stars line up perfectly and the pin wedges perfectly between the anvil legs and the primer is then partially reseated.

 

[spencerhut]

I think you may all be wrong about the decapping pin. The RCBS decapping pins have a spring under the base of the decapping pin. Take the die apart and pull the pin out, I bet there is a crushed spring under it. Replace the spring with any spring you can find that will fit or order it from RCBS. In a pinch you can just screw the decapper further down.

 

[margiesex]

Some replies....

Fellas:

Thanks a bunch for all your replies.

In response to a few, I need to say:

spencerhut - there are no springs on top of (or under depending how you're seeing it) the RCBS decapping pins in any of my RCBS dies - including rifle. The decapping pin fits snuggly against the base of the decapping rod that screws into the ball (that in rifle cals may be considered the expander ball - expecially in neck sizing). So, I'm not sure what type of RCBS die you are referring too, but it's different than mine.

TexS - just maybe you have something with the pin not being exactly centered over the primer. After 1000's of decaps - I would think the possibility is there to bend.

As a result of this possibility, I am going to tear down the die completely and replace the pin and perhaps the decapping rod in total.....

There is no problem with the pin not extending below the case enough - thee's in excess of 3/16 - closer to 3/8th exposed.

Unclenick - you're terrific - I have read your posts and you have a great sphere of know how, however, in this case the "bulge" is not caused by the seating of the bullet (I experience this all the time loading Rem. Golden Saber's in my .45 - and you're correct - the bulge is uniform). The 'bulge' I'm recently experiencing is from the expander plug, not bullet seating.

The bulge is not uniform around the case - varies from 1/3 to maybe 1/2 way round the case. It is not uniform in depth or severity - that varies, too; nor is it always on the same side of the case (you can see it as you lower the case in one instance, and on the next, the bulge is on the other side) - and the sxpander plug doesn't move or float.

Guys, I have just tumbled all the cases I was working with. I am going through them and pull out all the bulged cases.

I have this feeling that it has something to do with case weakness - either they have reached the end or their lives, or if they are all the same manufacturer - the cases are inherently weaker.

This is really an enigma to me as it has only started with this batch of brass.....

I'll let you know.

Thanks again - I appreciate it.

God bless.

Margiesex

And remember: Hug your God and your guns - 'cause he's coming for them both, and soon!

 

[dmazur]

The Dillon pistol dies have a snap-spring that "throws" the primer off the pin, and this is apparently eliminates primer draw-back.

Dillon Carbide Pistol Dies_

It is possible your die does something similar, but it isn't working because the spring is bent or broken.

OR, if this is something that some of the manufacturers have tried to address, you could buy a die that has this feature.

 

[margiesex]

What I found...

OK - as I promised, I looked over each and every case, after polishing to a brilliant shine.

My theory of one manufacturer - bologna - all did it - all suffered from bulge.

So, I tore apart both of the dies - resize/decap and expander. I removed the decapping pin and put it next to a new one under a 10x loop - no difference I could see - except one was "polished" due to use. I saw no change in over all shapes, no "point" or flattening, etc. And, as close as I could tell, the old one was not bent - so, I cleaned up all the components of the die (replaced the decapping pin) and put it back together.

I found no problem with the expander plug either - and tore it apart, cleaned it, etc. put it back together.

Then I took some of the bulged cases and tried to run them through the 2 dies again at the same speed I think I normally would. Not one bulged case - naddah, zip, nil, zero! All perfectly resized and expanded.

If I continue to have this issue or it goes to another cal. I plan on talking to RCBS, as I see nothing amiss at all - all is cleaned, retightened, etc.

Thanks fellas for your input - I wish I could say that I found something out that dramatically changes reloading for all time - nope, I'm not that smart.

So - God bless, keep shooting and share our hobby!

Margiesex

And remember: Hug your God and your guns - 'cause he's coming for them both, and soon!

 

[Unclenick]

The bulge is not uniform around the case - varies from 1/3 to maybe 1/2 way round the case. It is not uniform in depth or severity - that varies, too; nor is it always on the same side of the case (you can see it as you lower the case in one instance, and on the next, the bulge is on the other side) - and the expander plug doesn't move or float.

Hmmm. I assumed it was the bullet because you'd originally put the bulge at the level of the bullet base, but I reread and see I missed that you were reporting it coming out of the expander that way. This is a new one on me. How does the expander surface look? The carbon in powder residue gradually wears at the surface of the expander and scuffs it. I'm wondering if the case mouths could sometimes hang up on that enough to start to buckle slightly? Buckling is almost never symmetrical because the brass is almost never perfectly even in its thickness around the case. However, it is also usually a catastrophic failure, turning into a kind of wrinkle in the brass, but I won't call it impossible as a source. If it has any bearing on the matter, then polishing the expander surface may help.

Another question would be whether the radius of the bulge matches the radius of the leading edge of the expander? Is it possible the case is not 100% inserted into the shell holder and is tipping a little, gets caught hard enough not to slip into place, so the leading edge of the expander to start to push out the side?

 

[bullspotter]

I have the same primer problems with my .40 and 9. seems to be only on the cci primed brass (my hand loads). all the misc once fired brass i get seems to deprime fine. (r-p,win pmc blazer.ext) One thing i would look at is the shell holder gets full of crud and will not push all the way in onto the ram, this leaves it off center with the die, this will cause problems. Make sure the grooves on the shell holder and the groves in the ram where it pushes into are all clean.

 

[spencerhut]

RCBS calls this the Pow'r Punch Decapping Rod. It's for use in pistol caliber sizing dies. If you own newer RCBS dies, it should have a decapping rod like this. See the spring?

 

[margiesex]

Best I've heard..

I think Unclenick may be close to what is the issue. I did tear down the expander die - and I could not see anything, but that doesn't mean it's not there.....so, until I decide I've had enough of it and man up to get another set of dies, I must be extremely careful as I expand....

Now, spencerhut has hit on the probable solution to the primer issue. RCBS catalog 2009, page 7 lists the Pow'r Punch Decap Rod as a separate tool for replacement of the standard decap rod in their dies. It references especially progressive presses (my 2000, for ex.) - so it is apparently, a common issue. However, if you go back to page 35 of said catalog under the Carbide Die sets - there is no mention of this rod being included as standard equipment. I guess they assume that if you don't have a progressive press, you won't have an issue. And, the latest (most recent) set of dies I have purchased is a carbide .40 set last December. I just tore that resizer die down - no Pow'r Punch decapper rod there.

So, as I see it - I need to purchase 5 of these pow'r rods (.32, 9, .38, .40, 45 ACP) - aka - $ 40.00 plus shipping - to get rid of the primer issue.

I'm not sure at this point it's worth the 40 bucks to me, but there's always a chance someone will feel bad for me and put me in their will (hint, hint) with which I can purchase these rods!

Thanks guys for all the input, and apparently, I'm not the only guy who has expereinced at least the primer issue.

Again - thank you, and God bless - good shooting - and share our hobby!

Margiesex

And remember: Hug your God and your guns - 'cause he's coming for them both, and soon!

 

[margiesex]

Update:

Yesterday I got an email from RCBS (I shot them an email on Friday - pretty fair reply time if you ask me) relating to the issues I raised.

The reply was that I probably needed the Power Punch Decapping Rod - so they are sending me one! Great service.

Now, about the second issue and the expander plug bulging the cases....he misunderstood also, and thought I was talking about a bulge from seating the bullet. I wrote back correcting him, but he's sending out a new expander plug in the meantime!

What a company!

I asked that he keep me informed if anyone else has this issue, but have no idea if he can/will.

Also, I have resized all those bulged cases I had. I found that the second time around - a number re-bulged (if that's a word) - so they went into the trash. Most resized and are now patiently waiting for some primers and bullets!

I'll let you know if I hear otherwise.

Thanks again fellas - appreciate it.

God bless and good shooting.

Margiesex

And remember: Hug your God and your guns - 'cause he's coming for them both, and soon!

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I'm not a progressive reloader... but your bulge issue almost sounds like an alignment issue is something askew with the set up where things aren't lining up just right in that station ???

 

[medalguy]

I have had the same problem depriming 9mm cases too. I originally used the standard sizing die with depriming punch without the spring and had quite a few cases fail to deprime. I started watching and most of the cases were Blazer brass. Well, recently I switched over to the RCBS Universal Heavy Duty Depriming tool with the spring on top of the punch, and voila-- the problem isn't happening any longer. I do notice a good "pop" as the primer is punched out, and particularly so with military crimped primers. Fact is, last time I deprimed a bunch of 5.56 brass I had primers shooting all over the room. Made a big mess.

Can't comment on the bulging case problem, haven't had the luck of that happening yet.