New AR in 308

[Wyosmith]

Ok, I have a question for all the 308 Gas Gun shooters reading this.

I just build myself an AR10ish rifle with a 13" long gas tube, 20" light weight barrel, and it's been superbly reliable so far. BUT...... I am having a hell of a time getting it to shoot a small group with the bullets I'd like to use.


To start, I need to say the rifle is accurate, but finicky. With Finish match loads (173 Gr) and also with a load of WW 748 (46.6 GR) and a Speer 150 grain, and well as a load of 49 of WW760 and 150 grain Remington Bronze Points the rifle will hold MOA or a bit less. My best is 7/8" but many go 1" to 1.1 inch. So the rifle can shoot well.

BUT I am looking for a bullet that I can trust to hold together and penetrate well, because I will likely use the new AR for an elk rifle and I can't get the old Bronze Points anymore. Besides that, I had some of them do erratic things in the years past that make me believe they may break up too much for an elk load. The Speer 150 is a wonderful deer bullet, but I have seen it give up a lot of weight fast on deer and the penetration is not all that deep. Some were found on the off side skin of mid size deer, and I want a bullet that will go deeper for elk hunting.

So.......... I tried some 165 grain and 180 grain bullets. LOT's of bad groups with Varget, 4895, 4064, and WW748 with them going between 4.5" and 7". Many times they string side to side, but also often shoot a large even triangle at 100 yards. But as I said above, with some bullets and powders the gun can shoot MOA and do it several times in a row. Just not with an elk bullet (yet).

So before I go on a long journey of trying all different kinds of powders, powder charges and bullets from 165 to 180 grain, I just thought I'd throw this post out, and see if anyone out there has seen something like this in their gas guns, and if so, what you may have done to solve it.

I can (and probably should) go to a Nosler Partition or Barnes X but the cost of them is high enough that I want to try other options first, because such finicky rifles sometimes go through a few hundred rounds before you hit on what they like. In the case of the Partitions, in the past I have often found a like weight flat base Speer or Hornady can shoot as accurate and to the same point of aim as a Partition in several guns I have owned and shot.


I can start with a long experiment, but I think it may be wise to simply ask others before I start. What say ye all?

 

[mxsailor803]

I’d suggest trying some Sierra ProHunters. I won’t suggest a weight because I use a much lighter bullet than I would want to use on elk. My grandfather started me off using them in the 80’s and I couldn’t begin to tell you how many SE whitetails, coyotes, foxes, bobcats, and hogs they have killed. Are you using a chrono? I’m wondering if there is a FPS difference enough between your other loads that’s throwing it off that much.

 

[Wyosmith]

Hi MX sailor.
No I am not chronographing any of them yet. No reason to if they don't shoot well. If they don't shoot well enough for me to consider I see no reason I'd want to know how fast they are, or what deviation they have. Knowing the reason they shoot badly is ok, but knowing or not knowing, I would not use them, so I don't care about their speed or consistency if they shoot 3+ inches or worse.
The rifle will shoot better. I know because it shoots around 1 MOA consistently with 2 bullets, but neither of those bullets will do for hunting elk. In the case of the match load the bullets is an FMJ and in the case of the Bronze Points, Remington doesn't sell them anymore and even if they did they also can be erratic in their performance on larger game.

I may try the Pro-Hunters. I do not like them for elk, because they come apart far too much to please me, but they are OK for deer and at also very accurate in my other guns I have used them in. The cool thing about the Pro-Hunter line is they shoot very close to the same as a Nosler Partition of the same weight, so if I can get the rifle to shoot well with both the Sierra and the Nosler I can use the Sierras for practice and for some hunting of deer an antelope, but use the Partitions for elk.

 

[bacardisteve]

180gr nosler ballistic tip and 44gr varget. Ive shot that load in several 308 rifles including a couple gas guns and it always performs. Work up to it 308 brass varies a good bit in volume. If you want a tougher bullet the accubond shoots to same poi. Shooters pro shop has good prices on nosler bullets.

 

[Wyosmith]

I think I'll try that. I have both Varget and 180 Gr BTs here.

 

[stagpanther]

Try a box of federal 168 MK gold medal match as sorta a test--it usually produces a group close to MOA in ALL the 308 rifles I've ever shot it in.

 

[HiBC]

A 165/168 gr MK/Custom Comp/Ballistic Tip/Accubond wit 44 to 45 gr Varget behind it has shot remarkably well in my brothers AR-10 T and very good in my DPMS LR 308L

After we did the work to find that load,years ago,Handloader Mag had a cover article for "The Ultimate 308 Accuracy Load" or close to that.

They came to the same conclusion.

I'd call it one of those loads that just ought to shoot.

But,your experience is legit. Is it free floated?

Does it have a muzzle device? An experiment might be removing the weight of the muzzle devie just to alter harmonics.See what happens.

 

[Wyosmith]

Yes HiBC the role has a FF tube and it also has only an A2 Style flash hider. I had though of buying one of those "rubber baby buggy bumpers" that are used to tune harmonics. They are ugly, but ARs are not made for looks. The barrel is quilt light so I expect it to be whippy. Many believe a light barrel cannot be as accurate as a heavy barrel, but 50+ years of gunsmithing and building have proven to me that is simply not the case. They can be a lot more finicky however. No need to go buy an Golf Medal Match. I know the rifle will shoot well because it does, just with bullets I either can't get any more, or with bullets that are not for hunting. My best load so far for strict accuracy is holding inside 1 MOA four 3 shot groups in a row, and the very best one has grouped into 3/4". So the quest continues. I want a bullet of good construction that I can have confidence in for killing elk. Deer and antelope are easy, because even a big deer is not all that hard to kill if you hit them right. But elk can be a whole different scenario. Stepping up from a 250 pound animal to an 850- pound animal is a huge jump,and elk bones are a LOT harder to break and still have a bullet to do some damage then a deer.

 

[Ben Dover]

I've never loaded anything heavier than 150 grain in my LR308, but it shoots every 150 I've tried into 3/4 inch to1 1/4 inch (5 shots) My best groups come with Speer 150 BTSP over H335.

I don't hunt with it, so I can't address that issue.

 

[HiBC]

It may not make any difference,but I prefer to put the A-2 flash hider in a 5 C collet in the lathe and use a boring bar to open the ID up to just under the minor diameter of the muzzle threads. I lke to think the flash hider will have less tendency to deflect the bullet with turbulence,etc. I can't prove it works.

I've had Douglas FWT barrels deliver great hunting accuracy,free floated. Light barrels can shoot quite well. But you know that.

I'm sure you have checked your optic mounting.

Depending on your upper receiver quality...the front face of an upper is as important as the bolt gunreceiver ring face for being flat and true,Its the foundationthe barrel rests on. Some folks lap those true.I can't say I have.

If you go to 180 gr bullets,some folks like 4064.

I don't figure I'm going to tell you much you don't already know. I believe t ain;t your first rodeo.

Have you tried a 165 gr AccuBond? With Varget?

 

[Wyosmith]

Well I tried Varget and the 150s shoot well. Not super well, but good. I shot a few groups with Hornady Flat based bullets and 44 grains which all went close to MOA with one going under by a bit. It mikes .891" CTC. Not as good as the Bronze point of the match FMJs I mentioned above, but pretty close.

With 165 Boat tail Hornadys the rifle shoots 43.3 Gr of Varget pretty well but not as well as the 150s. Most groups going into about 1.3"

I used 42.6 of Varget with a 180 grain flat base and the rifle doesn't like that at all. 2.833" was my largest group with that load and the very best one was 2.307" I tried the same bullet with IMR 4064 and as expected it was better. Not great, but at 1.347" I can work with the load a bit and maybe the seating depth and see if I can tighten that up. At the speeds you can fire the Hornday 180 grain flat base they do work pretty well on elk. Sometimes you hear about failures with this bullet but it's usually when fired at much higher velocities for 300 mags. In the past I have seen several elk killed with this bullet from a 30-06 and a also a few from 308s and at distances of 100 yards and out, they hold together well enough to exit.

So the gun is showing me a bit of a pattern, and I think with a bit more "teeth and hair pulling" I can get it to shoot as I want it to. I will revisit the 44 grain and 150 grain bullet load, but substitute a Nosler Partition and see if it shoots MOA or close with that. If I can get this rifle to shoot a bullet that will hold together well I will be happy. If I can get it to shoot a tough bullet and also a cheep bullet of the same shape and weight I'll be VERY happy. I like to shoot and I do a lot of it, so having something to fire that is affordable it important to me. Most of my rifles get several hundred round a year fired through them, and my autos can get between 1000 and 2000 a year through them.

 

[DnPRK]

Have you tried shooting it after removing the flash hider? If doing so shows a difference from previous groups, then tuning by creating a series of "thread protector" tuners of various weights may be a solution. Sure would beat the hideous rubber doughnut.

 

[stagpanther]

because such finicky rifles sometimes go through a few hundred rounds before you hit on what they like.

Nature of the game. I think you're asking for two things here--best propellant/bullet for your set-up and best bullet for your intended game.

 

[dvdcrr]

Have you tried the 165 gr. TSX , or 168 E-tip? 165 gr. Interbond? I think something has got to work. Tried any RL 15 etc.?

 

[Wyosmith]

Coming up next: (for anyone who is interested)

180 grain Loads with WW760, RL15 4064 and BLC2. I have only 180 grain Flat Base Hornadys and 180 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip Hunting bullets in 180 grain so far.

I also have some 165s in both flat base and boat tail, both by Hornady. And some Hornady 150 grain flat base along with some Winchester Power Points, one box of Nosler Partitions and some Remington Core-Lokts

If I can get a 165 grain load to shoot at 1 MOA or less I may "marry' the rifle to such a load.

If it seems to favor 150s I will try some of the Nosler Partitions at the same load as the cheaper 150 and see if both will shoot to the same point of impact and with similar accuracy. Most 150 grain 30 cals will not exit an elk. Some do about half the time (I have seen this a number of times with Barnes, Nosler Partitions and Winchester Power Points) but when a 30 cal bullet of 150 grain expands well it is about 55 to 60 caliber on it's front end, and in my years of hunting and killing elk I find that over 1/2 the time that is too much resistance to get a 150 grain bullet clear through most elk. This is the one reason I am really hoping the rifle will shoot a 165 or 180 to my satisfaction. But if it won't I'll buy the lighter Partitions or the Barnes bullets and use them to make elk meat with, while I have fun shooting for practice with something less costly.

In my 1/2 century of hunting elk and guiding elk hunters I have found many 180 grain bullets are fine from various 308s (and even from 300 Savages, as well as a few 30-40 Krags) because these shells don't hold enough powder to drive many 180s fast enough to break them up badly enough to cause penetration problems. Not all, but many 180s are fine. The only ones I have seen that seem to either break up too badly or veer off course a lot inside the elk are the Old Nosler Ballistic Tip Solid Base (before the "Ballistic Tip Hunting" line was made) the Burgers and some of the Sierra Game Kings. In fairness, the Sierras have always done fine in 308s, a few from 30-40 Krag (round nose and spitzers in both flat base and boat tail shapes ) and nearly all 30-06 hits from 100 yards and farther. The ones that ALWAYS broke up badly are the old Nosler BT solid bases and all the Burgers I have seen used so far. And yes I did write ALL. As in 100%. Some folks love them, but I am not one of them. I have seen a few pictures of well expanded Burgers with some of the lead still inside them, but only in pictures. So far 100% (ALL) the ones I have seen used in person have broken up completely. Same with the older Nosler BT solid base bullets. Not one has held together yet that I have personally seen used, and the total of them is about 30-35 so far.

Were the deer elk and antelope dead? Yes. (Obviously) But in comparing apples to apples, no one could convince me that ANY of them would not have also been just as dead, and the chore done as well (or far better) with a bullet that expanded and went clear through. Some dropped and some didn't. The ones that didn't were not as easy to track down as game gushing from a large exit wound. And off side shoulder bones are not easily broken by small fragments. Just because you can kill with a bullet doesn't make it a good bullet for the task and certainly doesn't make is the best for the task. In slaughter houses we used to kill cows with 22 long rifles. I did that many time myself when I was a boy. That doesn't mean a good 22 rifle with accurate ammo is a fine hunting combination for game weighing 1600 pounds. Yes it can work. But not as well under non-controlled conditions as (for an example) a 375H&H or even a 30-06. Just because a bullet will kill is not proof it's the best at doing the job overall. It only proves getting shot with a high powered rifle is always a bad thing to have happen for the creature getting shot. In my years of hunting I have often aimed at the shoulder bone on the OTHER side of the animal. Sometimes you don't get picture perfect broad side game posing for you.
That is why I love exits. (ESPECIALLY for other hunters ---- when I am the one guiding)

So the shooting continues.

Wish me luck.

 

[Wyosmith]

Well I found a good load for elk in this rifle.

41 grains of 4064 and an old fashioned Hornady Inner-Lock Spire Point Flat base. WCC NATO brass and WW LR primer. Seated and crimped into the cannelure.

Shot at 107 yards (close to 100 Meters) with my AR10(ish) rifle I made for myself. It has a very light weight barrel made from a Green Mountain bank that I cut at 20". I did all the machine work, chambering and set the gas port out farther then standard. I use a 13" long gas tube to avoid the over-gas problem we see in many of the early AR10 style rifle. Scope is a Redfield Revenge 2X to 7X and I leave it set at 5X. I was tempted to zero at 7X but I decided to leave it at 5X because that is how I always leave in when actually hunting.

This rifle was quite finicky. It shot a danish imported match ammo well coming in around 1 MOA, (1.035") and also a load of 49.1Grains of 760 with an old Remington Bronze Point at 1.110" But the Bronze Point is not a bullet I want to use for elk, and Remington isn't even making and selling them to the hand-loading market anymore. So it doesn't really matter if that bullet shot well of not.

I also good accuracy and a few groups of around 11/16" with Speer 150 grain flat base bullets and 47.6 Gr of WW748. The best one being .778", but past experience with this bullet has shown me a lack of exits and limited penetration on mid size and big deer, so if I can't expect it to exit a deer I am unwilling to use it on elk.

Other groups were averaging around 2" to 3" with some being horrid at over 4" I wanted to see what I could get with a 165 or a 180- grain bullet, some of which I have seen good results on elk in the past from 308s and 30-06s. The rifle would shoot well, but not with bullets I wanted to trust on an elk hunt.

Well today I hit a good one. I am pleased. The old 180 grain Hornady Spire Point flat base on 41 grains of 4064. I have not chronographed it yet because of very dark skies and low light, but I will soon. I expect it will go over 2450 FPS and I know that is fine for elk. At those speeds the bullets are not moving fast enough to break them completely apart. This muzzle velocity usually gives hit at between 1900 FPS to 2400 FPS on the elk and in my experience with this bullet in the past from other 308s and a lot of 30-06s it works well. The only times I have seen bad break-ups with this bullet in the past were from shots at 150 yards and less from various 300 magnums. So as of now, I am a happy camper.

I will keep trying to get it to also shoot a good 165 too, so I can add a bit of speed to flatten out the trajectory a bit more, but if it seems to do best with this load and doesn't like any of my tries with a good 165, I am happy to "marry" the rifle to this 180 grain bullet too.

Here is a pic of what I just did last hour.
OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA by Steve Zihn, on Flickr

The 1st picture is of the whole paper. Once on paper I tried the 180 grain load above at the upper left square. As you can see, it's quite good enough for hunting with this rifle. 3 shots into .778".

I "crotch the square" with the cross hairs to try to "hold small". In other words I try to put the crotch of the cross on the lower right corner to work up loads. The first 3 round were good enough for group size, but shot low and to the right. So I then shot at the lower right square. As you can see the 1st shot hit about the same place as the shots before, low and to the right. I brought the scope up and fired #2. I then clicked up 4 more, and fired #3. My last shot was held to center over the square, and it hit nearly center and 2" high, which is exactly where I'd want it to hit, so I call that zeroed and ready for the field.

The 2nd picture is the the 1st group next to a penny.
308 Elk load at 100 meters by Steve Zihn, on Flickr

I will continue to work with loads using 165 grain bullets. I hope I can find one with a tough bullet hat shoots as well (maybe better) then is one, but if not I'd be happy with what I have now.

Just as a side note: Varget didn't give me good accuracy so far. 42.2 of Varget shot 2.880" at best and 4.012" at worst. Not that it won't ever shoot well with Varget, (many 308s will) but not yet with the bullets and charge weights I have tried thus far.

My best so far is with the Speer 150s and this is my 2nd best .......... but 2nd best is with a much better bullet for the use of this rifle. 2nd best is only 91 thousandths larger, so only about 1/3 of the bullet width. I'll accept that for hunting elk, no problem.

 

[stagpanther]

You might want to venture off and take a look at some monolithic solids, cost more but there are some companies (beyond just Barnes) that make them like cutting edge, cavity back, Maker etc. I haven't used them on game--but woodleigh has a very good reputation for making reliable game-dropping tough bonded bullets.

 

[Wyosmith]

Stag, I will use cup and core bullets as long as they give me exits on my game. If the percentage of exits starts to drop much below about 95% I have a habit of going to either a Nosler Partition or one of the bonded bullets, and in some cases where I have high muzzle velocities (over 2800 FPS) I will use an expanding solid like a Barnes, Hornady GMX or Fox.

But the bullet is not what kills. It's the bullet HOLE. Once you get any bullet to expand and go clear through and give an exit wound, all the rest is of no farther value. The bullet is just a tool to make the hole. Once you have an exit in a fairly straight line, all the rest is just "emperors new cloths."

Bullets that break up very badly, and those that make a lot of crazy terminal wound channels are NOT ones I will take hunting for elk. Even on deer and antelope the can be troublesome at times. The faster they go the more you see such things.
The expanding solids don't open much (or at all) once they drop below about 1900 fps impact velocity, so for guns with muzzle velocities of 2600 and less, the range at which they work is fairly short. Long enough for a real hunter in 98 times out of 100, but the partitions do as well in all the guns I use them in for the game I hunt with those guns. But yes I do use them at time. I did this year in fact on one of my antelope shot with a 300 Savage M99 with peep sights at 165 yards. I used a Hornady 140 grain flex-tip expanding and the kill was dramatic, instant and the blood shot area was small. Overall it was outstanding. But in honesty, it was not that much better then the kills I have made in the past with a 300 Savage using standard Remington 150 grain.

As a gunsmith, when building or working on very high velocity rifles I often go straight to Barnes TSX. Many of the 300 mags and especially the ultra mags, the magnum 7MMs, the STWs, the 257 and 270 Weatherby mags and the 264 mag, 6.5 Weatherby and the 26 Nosler ----all do superbly with expanding solids. In fact they would be best used with only expanding solids for 90% of all the use most hunters will call on them for.

In my collection I only have 4 rifles that push their bullets close to 3000 FPS or a bit more. I have owned many many of them in the last 50 years, but I ended up selling all but 4. Three 270s and one 300 mag.

In 2 of my 270s I use 150 grain and 160 grain bullets and in one I use 130 grain bullets.
My 300 mag is zeroed for 200 grain Partitions and shoots the 200 grain Speer to the exact same point of impact, so I have "cheap bullets" to practice with.

I no longer think higher speeds are a reason for me to buy or build a new rifle. I did that for several years, but now days I enjoy the guns far more for what they are, not always just what they can do. I love the older style guns and having killed game with rifles many times that shoot bullets over 3300-3450 FPS and seen it done by hunters many times more, I have to say, I still like my classic guns a lot more.

In those super speed rifles that I have killed game with I can't say that any of them really killed elk, deer, antelope, bear, caribou or moose any faster then my old 300H&H, 375H&H or my 270s. I gave them a 30+ year try ....and used a lot of them .......and never did I see any problem with any of them as long as I shot a bullet in them that would hold together. But they just were not "better" then the two H&Hs or the 270s. As goods at times, but never really better.

Many younger hunters and gun owners will "bow up" at that statement--- wanting so badly to believe they have the latest and greatest. They spent money and believed the gun-rag articles. It just has to be true dang-it!!!

I did that myself for a lot of years.

It just ain't really true.