New AMP Annealer

[jugornot]

Just took delivery of Amp (Annealing Made Perfect) annealer. Wow! I have rearranged my Reloading process to incorporate it. The process is as follows:
1 Deprime
2 Clean Ultrasonic
3 Anneal
4 Body size using Redding competition body die
5 neck size 75%
6 trim
7 wet tumble with stainless media
8 prime
9 add powder
10 seat bullet

I am now tumbling a 15 case test. Things I like about the AMP: very uniform body resizing, went down .002 on competition shell holder to achieve same results (shoulder bump back .002"), and the few oddball cases that show up .004 to .005" longer and won't bump back are now bumping back to spec, finally so much easier press work. By the last I mean very little force required to body size. I'm really glad I took advice and started lower on the body die. Final word is the AMP worth it? The test will finalize my opinion, but yes so far it has delivered on its promise. The range is waiting. It will be a few days before I get there.

Bill

Any advice welcome.

 

[ShootistPRS]

Bill,
I have to ask why or how you selected your "bump back" length?
You had some cases that were .005" longer than your static length and they fit your chamber and fired and you have decided to reduce that base to shoulder size back .007" to meet your .002" off your static length. So if I am not mistaken your cartridges are being sized at least .007" away from your chambers shoulder?
It sounds to me like you are over sizing, and over working, your cases.

 

[Unclenick]

That's likely so if he has only one gun in the chambering and the brass came out of his chamber. I was thinking, though, he might be resizing once-fired brass, since he knows about using the Redding Competition Shell Holder.

If this brass is out of one gun for one chamber, though, you might try taking a round and neck sizing-only. A Lee Collet Die is a good way to go. Fire the same case and measure it each time and see how much it grows. If it starts getting snug to chamber, at that point you have it pretty well matching the size of the chamber and without spring-back. Measure that number and figure to set it back 0.002" from that value. Using the annealer will make that much easier to control exactly.

 

[jugornot]

Taking it back to unfired spec for semi-auto. Practicing on pull down LC brass (that I have fired once) before I move to bolt gun. Already learned some stuff using annealer. I would hate to screw up my Lapua brass. I know don't castrate me but I have a DPMS Gen 2 with 24" bull barrel that shoots decently(since I got it back from Ahlmans from repair.) Having to work up all new since return. I know! I know! but I also have a bolt gun that I am really looking for accuracy from. Mainly looking to get consistent velocity from process. About the long cases I have about 2 from each 50 round batch that does this long reading. I know this number only means anything to me but I get 1.623+- .0015 from 48 cases and two that read 1.627. Right now I suspect a case problem. Time will tell.

I use the cheapest brass I can find to learn on, and then use lapua brass in bolt guns and cheap brass in AR's.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[jugornot]

P.S. For neck sizing I use Redding Competition Neck Bushing Die. It only does the neck. I use the TN bushings and size for .002" below loaded neck diameter. I really like the Redding set as it includes the body die also. I have heard good things about the Lee collet die, but don't know if its necessary with my setup.

 

[Unclenick]

The long stuff may have been stretched by mis-timed extraction.

To get an absolute measurement, buy a decent quality GO gauge from Dave Manson or another good maker (I've seen cheap ones that were off a couple of thousandths) and measure that, zero the caliper on it and then measure the case. That will give you how much bigger than the gauge the brass is.

The thing to keep in mind is that if an AR chamber can be as short as the minimum chamber length and still function with new ammo, and new ammo is typically about 0.002" short of a minimum chamber, then 0.002" shorter than whatever your chamber is should function. The only fly in the ointment is sizing die tolerances. If you get one on the tight side, then your cases are all adequately narrowed even if you don't set the shoulder back more than 0.002". If you get one on the wide side, that may not happen and you could find yourself thinking you need a small base die instead of a standard one, when you just needed one that wasn't loose. Dillon's die sets are minimum spec, so if you need a source of one that's on the tighter side of width, that's a source.

 

[Metal god]

since he knows about using the Redding Competition Shell Holder.

Oh good , I was about to write out my whole press deflection competition shell holder thing . I finally saved it though , I now can just copy and paste

Although it does seem before the OP got the annealer he was experiencing some press deflection if some cases were coming out longer then the intended size ?

 

[Unclenick]

Not necessarily. I've had pickup LC brass from matches in the past, when ammunition was still issued for them, and that would resize up to 0.005" different in length going through the same die in the same press. If the chamber it came out of was long enough, it just sprang back more, and I would have to run it into the die an additional two or three times to get another couple or three mils off of it. Stubborn stuff. But that was without annealing.

 

[jugornot]

Good stuff guys, but let me see if I got this right. The LC and Lapua brass measure for me unfired at 1.6215 and 1.623. Most of the brass was coming back 1.623. So you are saying to just neck size all the 1.623 only. Of coarse I would have to body size the long cases. So my mark should be to hit 1.623? see below

Second is my gun. When I received it with Black Hills Ammo, it would bulge the primers into the firing pin hole far enough that I could not get them into the shell holder for decapping. And one the primer actually extruded far enough to lose a small piece in the shape of the firing pin hole. I called it pierced but there may be another term for it. I bought Forster headspace gauges and the rifle closed on the nogo gauge. Pulled out my bolt gun and it passed perfectly. Since it was a new gun I sent it to Ahlmans for repair. 2 weeks and they returned it and blamed it on ammo. But further reading underneath the explanation they also replaced the bolt and polished the chamber. I removed the extractors and ejector again and it still closes on the NOGO gauge. They sent a fired round that was very slightly cratered. Went to the range and the brass looks good now. I suspect a oversized firing pin hole as the culprit that the bolt fixed. But does this possibly explain the occasional long case?

Once again thanks so much guys.

Is the forster headspace gauge good enough? And I would still body size but with no bump back for the shoulder on the 1.623 brass?

 

[Metal god]

I size a lot of once fired LC brass that can't have been fired all in the same chambers . Yet when using my comp shell holders which removes my press deflection . They almost always come out the same size . The ones that don't , only differ +/- .001 .

I'd agree that if a case is more on the NO-GO or field gauge lengths and you need to size them down to GO gauge or needing to bump the shoulders .010+ then you might get some spring back but I thought it was agreed .005 spring back in just the case is not likely to happen and that variance includes another factor ?

 

[jugornot]

MG the long brass would not resize back to spec even trying 3 times and going down .002 on the shell holder. It also took much more effort to run it through the press. After annealing they resized properly and with minimal effort.

And if you don't mind explain press deflection. I use Lyman Crusher 2 single stage press. Would the Forster Co-Ax be better? I've only heard of press deflection on progressive presses/

 

[jugornot]

Ok Unclenick, I just did another batch. Using my Forster GO gauge I zeroed My calipers on the gauge and my number was 1.622". Well really 0 but it was actually crap you know. I had been using +.006 shell holder and tried +.008. I got quite a few cases at +.001 from the zero. This probably would have been OK but I went back to +.006. My cases then measured from 0.000 to -0.001 for all the rest except 1 that measured -0.0015 after body sizing. This should allow the ammo to chamber in any rifle? Should I push it and go back to the +.008 and maybe have some cases at +.002 over GO gauge?

Once again guys thanks for all the knowledge and experience.

Bill

 

[Metal god]

My cases then measured from 0.000 to -0.001 for all the rest except 1 that measured -0.0015 after body sizing. This should allow the ammo to chamber in any rifle

No

I have a DPMS Gen 2 with 24" bull barrel that shoots decently

tried +.008. I got quite a few cases at +.001 from the zero. This probably would have been OK

Absolutely not

Neck only sizing or FL sizing to zero shoulder bump for semi auto's is not a good idea . You are asking for feeding problems . You always want to FL size for semi auto and I'd recommend at least bumping your shoulders back .002 from zero . I bump all my semi auto's .003-ish . The bolts on most semi auto's don't create enough cam force to close the bolt on a case that is + in size from head to datum then the chamber it is entering .

I sure hope I've been following this thread right ? If what I've been saying does not make sense then disregard

 

[T. O'Heir]

You're making the whole process a great deal more complicated than it is. Annealing and trimming, for instance, are not something you need to do every time. You don't need to clean the cases twice either.
Trimming is only done when the cases get longer than the max case length. Annealing(that has nothing whatever to do with resizing) is only done when you get one cracked case.
"...Taking it back to unfired spec for semi-auto..." Is done with a Full Length resizing die or sometimes, but not often, a Small Base sizing die. No neck sizing for a semi-auto, period. No measuring cases is required at all.

 

[hounddawg]

annealing is necessary every time if you are reloading for precision shooting and want consistent neck tension.

The Annealing Under The Microscope Part II lab test proved that

https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/42/annealing-under-the-microscope/

Probably the most significant detail to emerge from this round of tests is confirmation that annealing every reload is important for best consistency. Below is the test data for packs 3, 4 and 5, each of which was treated identically except for pack 4, which was not annealed this reloading cycle (it had been annealed every other cycle).

This is for precision shooting of course. If you are just loading for non benchrest to be shot at 300 yards or less then it is not important except for case life. If you are paying $2 or more per case then at least the old socket on the drill and torch routine should be used

 

[jugornot]

Sorry for my murkiness. Yes this is for precision reloading. I bought the annealing machine because no matter what I did I could not get my ES where I wanted it. I am very particular about my processes. The only die I run dirty is the decapper. It is not precision. I abandoned the full length resizer long ago for my bolt guns, and I am trying to incorporate my process for the ar's. I have gotten my RRA LAR-15 to .8" and below at 100 yards. It is a way to pursue my precision bug in a "more fun" system. If I was not reloading for precision it would almost be cheaper to buy the ammo I use. Its the chase that drives me. Oh and I trim to weight sort. Keeps everything on a level playing field. Probably only needed to do this the first time, but what does it hurt?

Hey dog thanks for the article. Its one of those things I read online but hadn't seen the original.

 

[Unclenick]

Jugornot,

When you zero on the GO gauge, what do you get for your as-fired brass that has not yet been resized?

Did the Black Hills ammo that caused primer flow into the firing pin tunnel also mushroom and spread out at the perimeter of the cases? If not, you may need to check the tunnel and firing pin diameter spec. The exception would be for Remington actions that have the chamfered firing pin tunnels. No clue why they are doing that on some guns now, but they will show some fill into that space on the primers.

Interestingly, some folks have claimed the carbon in cases helps lubricate the bullet and that they got too much bullet pull and or friction from the smooth-on-smooth surfaces. IMHO, it doesn't matter much if what you get is consistent, though, and isn't causing runout. I this article, Bugholes from a Bipod, the consistency is achieved by turning brush inside each case neck to clean it up and slightly scuff the surface. The lube is said to have been just alcohol and graphite, so it's a controlled inside neck dry lube, apparently. But whatever method you use, you want consistency.

Some other things you want to look at:

Case neck runout and finished cartridge runout. This video shows one way around it. Expanders seem to be a major culprit. Using inside neck lube and a carbide expander mitigates it. Removing the expander from the die (or replacing it with one that is one-size smaller, so you still open neck dents up) and then using an expander that goes down into the case mouth rather than pulling up on it can help. The Lyman M die is a good choice, or you can get a Sinclair die body that holds outside neck turning mandrels and do it with one of those.

Seat in a manner that keeps the bullet straight. Both Forster and Redding have sliding sleeve Benchrest or Competition (respectively) seating dies. The Redding goes the extra mile by having a floating seating ram/stem inside. The latter are all I use on precision rifle ammunition now, and they work very well. However, a standard RCBS seating die's long, skinny threaded rod stem flexes enough to act like a floating stem, and if you use a Lyman M die seated just deeply enough to put a slight step in the case mouth so the bullet base is capture and the bullet is then very straight upright on the case mouth as it starts into the RCBS die, you get results that seem to be as good, or so close to it that I don't normally see a difference on paper. Also, while you can use very light crimping to remove the Lyman M step, if it fits into your chamber without doing that, it actually helps center the bullet a little, so you can leave it.

Priming is another thing to explore. Writing in the 1995 Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, the late Dan Hackett wrote:

"There is some debate about how deeply primers should be seated. I don’t pretend to have all the answers about this, but I have experimented with seating primers to different depths and seeing what happens on the chronograph and target paper, and so far I’ve obtained my best results seating them hard, pushing them in past the point where the anvil can be felt hitting the bottom of the pocket. Doing this, I can almost always get get velocity standard deviations of less than 10 feet per second, even with magnum cartridges and long-bodied standards on the ’06 case, and I haven’t been able to accomplish that seating primers to lesser depths."​

Uniform the depth of the primer pockets and seat firmly enough to set the bridge consistently (this article explains it), and you will get better start pressure consistency.

 

[jugornot]

UncleNick

Fired brass = .0035 to .005 with a couple at .0055

The BHA Showed damage to the brass by imprinting the ejectors and damage from the extractor and some wiping on the case body. I solved this problem with an adjustable gas block. Subsequent firing after the bolt replacement proved to be reliable with no damage to the brass.

I use the Sinclair hand priming tool which I feel the primer bottoming.

I read the article but do not lube after the SS media tumble which is right before priming.

I use the Redding competition dies which have the sleeve for neck sizing and bullet seating.

I try to do my due diligence when exploring reloading, and I appreciate all your advice. I see that I need to explore neck turning and concentricness as I move closer to satisfying my process.

Bill

Thank you all gentlemen.

 

[hounddawg]

you will want to look into the concentricity aspect for sure.I use the Hornady https://www.hornady.com/reloading/p...ols-and-gauges/lock-n-load-concentricity-tool along with the neck wall gage to identify neck wall thickness variation and runout. I have found that Lee collet neck sizers give me the most concentric necks. Since I am running SAMMI spec chambers when neck turning I only do a skim cut of maximum .001 to prevent undue stress on the brass.

On the neck lube I have tried several different methods including the dry graphite method. I have found I get the most consistent results by using a bit of Imperial or home made lanolin based case lube on a paper towel and rolling the bullet just like I would a case before resizing. Once seated I wipe the excess off. One little dab is good for 50 rounds

 

[jugornot]

I'm kinda inspired by this article Precision Rifle Blog. I am working down the list. I am not sure about neck turning because of the three top reasons for neck truning don't really apply to my Lapua brass. But for the cheaper brass I use in my other guns it may have some value.
Also for now I will not lube my first test batch. This may be the next variable I work on. I am considering frog Lube. As always I start with a base and experiment with 1 variable only.

Once again thanks everyone. I will get to the range for testing as soon as I can.

Bill