New 1895 Winchester Strength

[1972RedNeck]

How strong are new 1895 Winchesters in 30-06? I have heard the originals didn't like 60K PSI loads. Will the new one take it? I would like to get one and have it rechambered in 30-06 AI if it will hold up to 60K loads...

Thoughts?

 

[44 AMP]

I have heard the originals didn't like 60K PSI loads. Will the new one take it?

I suppose that depends on how you measure pressures. Back when the original 1895 Winchesters were in production pressure was measured in CUP and according to the infallible Wiki, the 06 max was 50,000 cup. Today, SAAMI uses a different measuring system and says the 06 max pressure is 60,000 psi.

A modern gun, made with modern steel, even using a pre 1900 design will take the SAAMI pressure limit.

Note that one of the purposes of SAAMI specs is to ensure the ammo is safe in ALL the guns chambered for it. This included old, original black powder guns. SAAMI limits for those old blackpowder rounds is safe in those old guns (assuming the gun is in sound mechanical condition, of course).

Same goes for smokeless rounds as well. Current modern ammo, loaded to SAAMI limits is meant to be safe in the oldest guns of that caliber, so in the case of the 06, modern ammo would be safe in an original 1903 production Springfield rifle as well as everything else.

Do be clear that there is a difference between safe and suitable.

 

[ligonierbill]

I like 44AMP's last sentence. Most lever actions lock in the rear of the action, including my favorite Savage 99 and the Winchester 1895. Some force will be transmitted to the action, and I have heard anecdotes of folks overloading '94s to the point of driving the action open upon firing. The result is a "stretched frame" and excessive headspace. I think what is happening in such cases is wearing out the pins and connectors in the action. A motorcycle chain is said to stretch, but that is in fact what's happening.

I tried and failed to find the reference, but the 300 Savage was intended to match the 30-06 load of the time (150 gr bullet at 2,700 fps). They backed off just a bit due to excessive wear. Of course, the last 99s could be had in the 62 ksi 308, and I never heard of any problems.

I suspect the modern Winchester 1895 will do just fine with current spec 30-06 loads. That said, why push it? It's a PITA to mount a scope on that rifle. My original 35 Winchester has a reproduction of the Lyman aperture, which works well. But it ain't a 300 yard gun. If I had one of the repop 30-06's, I'd use the aperture and load heavy RN bullets at modest velocity. But, your rifle, your choice. I don't see any problems ahead.

 

[Jim Watson]

You can get 1906 ballistics at 48000 psi, 44000 CUP. Or 1903 for that matter.
I think that would be enough in an iron sight lever action.

 

[taylorce1]

I would like to get one and have it rechambered in 30-06 AI if it will hold up to 60K loads...

Thoughts?

Main question is why? What goals are you trying to accomplish by doing a .30-06 AI? There are better cartridges to AI than .30-06 if you're looking for performance gains.

What is your tolerance to recoil? If you're wanting to push 60K psi, and shoot heavy bullets you may not like the 1895 design. It's designed to use the sights and that means there is more drop at the heel of the buttstock. This means recoil (felt/perceived) will be greater than a rifle that has less drop at the heel.

Most AI chambers are cut by first setting back the barrel by a thread. Without setting back the barrel, you might get excessive case stretch fireforming leading to case head separation. However, since there is no SAAMI standard for a .30-06 AI this isn't a rule that the barrel has to be set back. There are ways to reduce case stretch by introducing a false shoulder, but it means you might not be able to fireform factory ammunition without excessive case stretch.

If you're wanting the benefits of not having to trim and reduced case prep that an AI cartridge gives you when reloading. You might look into an RCBS X-Die, and keep a standard .30-06 chamber. After the initial case trim, you shouldn't have to trim again as long as you use the X-Die.

Lastly new production 1895 rifles aren't exactly cheap. However, it's your rifle and you can do what you want. The rifle will hold more value if it isn't made into an AI, if you ever wanted to part with it down the road.

 

[ligonierbill]

I'll second the recoil issue. At least the new ones have a shotgun butt. My 35 has a nice steel crescent. Last time out, I shot back-to-back with a 338 RUM. Guess which one made a mark?

 

[Paul B.]

I have the Browning clone of the 1895 Winchester in 30-06 that I found at a gun show. I always wanted one of those Winchesters but never found one in decent shape that was at a price I could afford. I guess the recoil was such that the previous owner trimmed the stock and put a recoil pad on the gun. Didn't help all that much, the gun still has a bit of nasty regarding recoil. When I do shoot it I use a 220 gr. cast bullet at roughly 1800 FPS. Recoil is tolerable and it kills paper just fine considering the iron sights. And, to think I was considering having the barrel rebore to make it a .35 Whelen. What was I thinking?
Paul B.

 

[44 AMP]

Some years back there was a nearly new 1895 at a local shop. Beautiful thing, and a gun I had always wanted to try out. Even came with a set of dies and some ammo and brass.

problem was, the rifle had the "rifle" crescent butt and was in .405 Win!

Now, that one is famous as TR's "Lion gun" but I can only think of a few rifles that would hurt one worse when fired, so I passed.

Converting one to .30-06 AI? why on earth would one bother??

First point, its going to seriously affect the resale value of the gun, but more importantly, the relatively small performance boost is not going to matter much, I wouldn't consider it worth the effort or expense.

If you're determined to have a .30-06AI levergun, go get one of the long action BLRs and convert that. The BLR uses a multiple lug rotating bolt that locks up at the front and is much better suited for high pressure rounds than the Win 95 is. Has a better shaped buttstock and is easily scoped, as well.

No, it doesn't have the "traditional" look but if you're interested in tradition, you wouldn't be wanting a .30-06AI, would you?