Need some help on a Webley

[hipwr40]

A friend of mine has given me a Webley. It's a Mark V, appears to be a 4" brl, seems to be in nice shape with all markings clear and an even brownish finish covering the entire piece. I've done a search here and read what I could about it. Any other sites with good info. on manufacture date or other history?

The markings on the frame side beneath the cylinder say "Webley Mark V patents 1914" and it has an arrow head on the top strap which I read was a military marking. Some of the smaller markings appear to be a crown???? with "BV" under one, "BP" under another and "NP" under a third. I don't see any caliber indication, big holes, .455 I assume?

Any info is much appreciated.

 

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

I have two Webleys, a Mark 1 and a Mark 4. Mark 4's were only produced from 1913 to 1915, so the Mark 5 could be pretty old. I haven't read the research in as while, so I can't remember when the Mark 6 changes came down, but I believe it was before WWII, rather than during the war. The Mark 6's only changes were a square butt, and a six-inch barrel, IIRC. For the life of me, I couldn't tell you the difference between a 4 and a 5, as I didn't pay that much attention while doing my research, because I don't have one.

I have no clue about websites. Try a Google search with Webley, Webley-Pryse, and Webley-Greene, and maybe Royal Irish Constabulary, i.e. RIC revolvers.

The W-P and the W-G were the guns that directly preceeded the Webley as we know it in the 1870's. The Webley could be regarded as the English Peacemaker.

Most of the marks are military acceptance stamps, and the NP stands for nitro proof, indicating your gun was proofed for smokeless powder.

If it has big holes, .455 it is. Good luck finding ammo, though. Fiochi still loads it, if you can find it. Last time I saw some for sale, it was $30/box mail order. Both of my guns were converted to run on .45 ACP in moon clips, or Auto-rim. (Actually, the Mark 1 won't take Auto-rims. Only the outer half of the cylinder was faced off, so it only takes half-moon clips.) I think you can make cases out of Auto-rims, but that requires thinning the rims down. All the English cartidges have very thin rims compared to American rounds. If you wind up reloading for it, use lead, rather than jacketed bullets, as the metallurgy in pre-war guns is a little primitive, and jacketed bullets are supposed to prematurely wear the barrel out.

If you did a search, I trust you read about My Curious Webley Revolver? That thread is chock full of neat stuff.

Springfield Sporters has some Webley parts, if you need 'em. You can get a Mark 6 barrel for $30 that'll drop right in, should you desire a six inch barrel. If you can find a spare cylinder, you could have it converted to .45 ACP. Switching cylinders is pretty easy on the Webley.

I hope you can get it running. My Webleys are among my favorite guns, and they're reliable, accurate shooters, with quite mild recoil, and smooth triggers.

Good luck!

 

[zeke]

Webleys

Used to have several Webley sites bookmarked, most of them now appear to be defunct. Buffalo Arms sells trimmed down 45 colt brass that can be reloaded for un-modified Webley cylinders. The first thing to check is if your cylinder has been modified to shoot 45 acp.

 

[hipwr40]

Thanks for the info guys. My friend told me the back of the cylinder was machined down just enough for 45 auto-rim to clear the rear the cylinderopening, or front of the blast shield, or whatever. He gave me some rounds that I can only assume are 45 auto-rim. Case is slightly shorter than 45acp, same OAL as acp and rimmed. Not sure if he rolled these himself or bought them. Could this also work w/ 45acp on moon clips?

The grip appears to be plastic and a lot newer than the rest of the pistol. What are the original grips made of?

appreciate the help.

 

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

Are the rims THICK? I mean THICK? And what's the headstamp? It should be "R-P 45 Auto". Auto-rims are set-up to match ACP's in moon clips, which is considerably thicker than a regular rim. If the cylinder is faced off, I'll bet it was for moon clips. Most .45 Webley's I've seen have been so modified.

Original grips are black plastic w/ a checkerimg pattern that ends at the bottom like a chevron, or "^". Mine from 1914 looked pretty new. Good plastic, I guess. I've never seen anyone offering new grips for Webleys, so I think they're original.

 

[zeke]

hipwr40-newer 45 auto rim brass is stamped "R-P 45 Auto Rim" All the Webleys i have seen have plastic grips (earlier ones bakelite?). There are several after market manufacturers advertizing grips.

Never tried moon clips with acp brass, although am assuming they would work. Would not advise using anything close to full powered 45 acp loads, or jacketed bullets however.

 

[James K]

Many Webley revolvers were imported into the U.S. after WWII and because .455 was rare here, the importers had the rear of the cylinder of many of them turned down to use .45 ACP with half moon clips. The clips are needed for firing because the Webley has no shoulder in the chambers to support the .45 ACP case. Most will accept the .45 Auto Rim without clips. A cylinder that has been modified that way cannot be used with .455 ammo.

HOWEVER, factory spec .45ACP or .45 Auto Rim should NOT be fired in the old Webley's. They are just not strong enough and .45 ACP loads which will function an auto pistol are too not for the old revolvers. Use lead bullets and a load that does not exceed .455 ballistics.

That Mk V has two sets of marks. The broad arrow is the military acceptance and property mark. The BP markings are commercial proofs, put on when the gun was sold out of military stores. This was done with every gun put on the commercial market in the UK, even if it was to be exported.

Note that there is a lot of confusion on "Marks". Webley had a series of revolvers made for the government, Marks I-VI. These were all in .455. Then they had a series of .32/.38 caliber commercial revolvers, Marks II-IV. The Mk IV was the latest and the one most often seen here. Then there were the Enfield revolvers, Marks I and II (Owen Jones), and the Enfield Mk VI, which was the Webley Mk VI as made at Enfield. Under the 1920's renaming scheme, the Mk VI (Webley or Enfield) became the Pistol, Revolver, No. 1. The Enfield .38 revolver became the Pistol, Revolver, No. 2.

Now that that is all clear...

Jim

 

[hipwr40]

Jim Keenan, clear as mud....not your fault, though...thanks for the info.

Re: the ammo that I have on hand...the rim is thin, I'd say 3/4 the thickness of a .44mag rim I have in front of me to compare it to.

The headstamp on these rounds is "K42" on top and "VIZ" on the bottom....some sort of milsurp ammo? or homegrown?

Was .455 a rimmed cartridge? Is it possible that these few rounds that were thrown in with the Webley are .455 rounds left over from a long time ago?

 

[Salt]

Check out the latest issue of HANDLOADER magazine. They have a great article on the Webly revolvers and many good tips on loading the .455 ammunition.

 

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

.455 is a rimmed cartridge. Sounds like the ones you have are .455's allright. Auto-rims are thicker by a good margin (say, .020-.030 inch) than"regular" American style rims.

I stand corrected about aftermarket grips.

And ditto about ammo from everybody. .45 ACP is loaded a good bit hotter than stock .455, so loads for Webleys should be "detuned" somewhat. Black-powder loads would probably work ok, but keep them out of an autoloader! Stock .455 is uaually a 260 grn RNL bullet at some 650 fps, FYI.

 

[zeke]

hipwr40-have a factory round, gotten from a cartridge collector dealer, that is stamped K42 and VIZ (or VI2) on bottom of rim (and silver colored bullet , which is stab crimped). this wopuld appear to be a factory loading of the MarkII cartridge, which is supposedly shorter than the Mark I cartridge (which was designed prior to smokeless powder and also referred to as .455 colt.) Ya still need to definitely determine if your cylinder was modified for 45 Ar loads. The only way i know, short of measuring, is to try a standard 45 acp case with moon clips or 45 AR case, and see whether action will close and cylinder turns. Quick check-see if any stampings on rear of cylinder are obviously "missing" lower part of letters or symbols.

Currently have a "modified for 45 acp" MarkI, and a Enfield Mark VI (non-modified cylinder)

P.S.-Mark VI's may have been made by Webley and or Enfield.

 

[hipwr40]

Zeke, the .455 round you described hits it on the head...that's what I got a few of with the pistol.

I'll do some further checking to see exactly what round the cylinder was modified to use. It's amazing that this revolver that is around 86-87 years old has a nice smooth action and is pretty tight.

Thanks for the help guys

 

[Jim Watson]

Just to add to the general hilarity, the "VIZ" headstamp on that ammo reads out as Mark 6 Zed. Mark 6 (Mk VI) is WW II era jacketed roundnose. The "silver" jacket is cupronickel instead of the gilding metal most other bullet jackets were made of by then.
Zed (= Z) indicates that the round is loaded with nitrocellulose powder instead of cordite.

I am not up on British headstamps, but I would guess that the K42 indicates the plant and year of manufacture.If your cylinder has been cut for .45 Auto Rim - rim thickness .090", it might not even fire the .455 - rim thickness .035" anymore. Just as well, that 42 date stuff will be corrosive primed.

PMC made some .45 Auto Rim ammo a few months ago, but I don't know who stocks it. Can't find it on Google this morning.