need help with 308 load

[onlybrowning]

I have tried H-4895, and Varget with no good results shooting a Nosler Ballistic tip 165 gr or a Combined Technologies 168gr ballistic silvertip. The charge weights I tried for the H-4895 were from 40.5-44.0gr. in half grain increments. The varget loads I tried were 45.0-46.0 in half grain inrements. I did not try any lower varget loads because most have said it performs best when loaded full house. I have some IMR 4350 around, should I try it? I see no data for it, but I have talked to someone who has used it for years in his 308. If not the 4350 I have, what do I buy next?

Also I have been keeping the COAL at 2.800" and using Remington brass (and tried winchester for the Varget loads upon recommendation) and have been using fed 210 primers. I have been full length sizing as I prefer this for hunting.

I talked to a benchrest shooter tonight at my smallbore match and he said 40.0 gr of varget is standard for 300 meter competition with a 168gr. This would be slow from my 22" barrel but I am willing to try anything.

I don't need .25" groups, but I haven't tried anything that will shoot even 1."

PLEASE HELP!!!!!!!!!

 

[DAVID NANCARROW]

It all depends on what you are shooting them out of. If its a bolt action, I would recommend neck sizing the cases and no matter what bullet/powder combination you try, the starting loads are there for a definate purpose.

Watch your cartridge overall length-some designs like the bullet very close to the lands, others less so. Spring for one of those Stony Point Overall Chamber Gauges-they are worth the money.

Work your loads up in 2 grain increments and you should see the group tighten at some point. When it does, you can work it in 1, then 1/10th grain increments.

Something else to consider-it might be the bullet itself. Try some Hornady, Winchester and Remington bullets. Your powder is not likely the culprit as your burn speed is within the ballpark, although for my 2 Remington 700 VS in 308, they both agree on Reloder 15. Neither one of them particularly like Varget, but do well with the above, and IMR4064, IMR4895, and BLC-2.

Finally, before you go out to spend oodles of money, have someone else fire your rifle to see if the same thing is true, and don't forget to make sure you have a scope/mount/rings of known quality.

 

[onlybrowning]

Thanks for the reply. I am sure it is not the shooter (me) only because I have tried any of the "decent" loadings at least twice. I reallly want to use this bullet as I have had very good results with it and I love everything about it. The gun is a bolt action Browning. I had never heard of going in two grain increments, so I will try that. I would like to stick to the full length sizing for easy chambering when hunting. I have achieved sub MOA groups by full length sizing and seating to book specs in any other bolt guns that I have owned, so it seems this gun should do the same...? I have even tried weighing brass, which seemed to make no noticable difference. One other thing, I have been using fed 210 primers , not 210M. None of the local shops had M's in stock. Will this really make much of a difference?

It should also be noted that I have not exceeded the max loads in the manual, and there are no signs of high pressure. With all of the loads I have tried, loads near max have shot best with this rifle. I am thoroughly confused and frustrated.

 

[DAVID NANCARROW]

I know exactly what you mean. I used the 165 grain ballistic tips on Texas white tails for years-they tear up less meat than the 150's and have had excellent accuracy with them. Penetration is a no-brainer with the 165's on these little guys. Lucky if you see a deer at 200 pounds, and most of them go for a bit over half that weight.

The BT's are a shade more accurate than most of the other "common" bullets in the same grain weight for me, and their accuracy gets better as the distance gets longer. I still don't think its the powder itself, but you may have to play with the charge to get it right. I am assuming the barrel is free floated and the recoil lug is snug in the stock.

I seriously doubt the primer is going to make much of a difference across a football field. I get 1/2 inch groups out of mine on a repeatable basis using standard CCI and Winchester primers on a full length sized case. For the lunch shots, I use 210M and weigh everything plus neck sizing and everything else I can use. A little bit here and a little bit there sure can make a difference!

 

[onlybrowning]

Ok you have convinced me...I am going to take the best of my varget loads and bridge the gap between them in .2 grain increments. I just didn't think this was enough to make a difference, but we shall see. I will post results tomorrow afternoon hopefully if the rain holds out. Thanks again.
-Rob

 

[DAVID NANCARROW]

I'm sorry-I meant to begin at the starting charge and work up in 2 whole grain increments until the groups tighten up. The latest Nosler manual actually lists the start charge on Varget for 165/168 grain bullets at 42 grains, best accuracy at 44 grains and max at 46. FWIW, their best powder recommendation is BLC-2 at a max charge of 46.5 grains. Starting charge is 42.5. Wish you a happy day at the range, and if its in your power, send some of that rain down here to Texas-not for me, but my grandkids would like to see it for the first time!

 

[jclaude]

.308 Loads

No experience with either of the bullets you're working with, but I have loaded and fired gobs of .308 over the years.

You mentioned that you have acheived very good accuracy results from other bolt guns. What's the best you've ever seen from this rifle?

You might consider trying a different bullet or bullets. Varget and 4895 will generally give superb accuracy. Some barrels just won't shoot some bullets very well. And, sad to say, but some barrels just won't shoot anything particularly well.

I am assuming that you have already addressed some of the other significant issues that can contribute to the accuracy of a bolt gun, such as action and barrel bedding, trigger setup, and sighting system.

 

[Tim R]

Primers can make a difference in rifle. Try some of those too. I have a Winny F/W in '06. I can put 4 shots the size of your thumbnail or less in the target at 100 yards. The 5th is always a flyer and the barrel will fry an egg. Group opens to 1 1/2 inchs with Win primers.

Like others had said, some rifles just might not shoot some bullets. I have to seat the bullet just off the lands to get the rifle to shoot.

 

[Wild Bill Bucks]

If you are swicthing from a copper bullet to a Lubalox bullet(Combined Tech. Ballistic silvertip) it will make a difference in your groups.
My Ruger 77 shoots "Same hole groups" at 50 yds, and consistent 1/2" goups at 100, with the 168 grain, ballistic silvertip.
I can use the same load , and the same bullet only copper, and my groups will spread to 1/2" at 50, and 1 1/4" at 100.
Either bullet can be loaded to shoot the way you want it to, but I had to make my mind up which one I was going to shoot and stay with it.
The lubalox bullet does not foul the barrel as much, so clean out isn't such a big deal, and the velocity picks up a little on the chrony so it shoots a hair flatter, is why I decided to stay with it and work my load around that bullet.
What is working great for me is. 47grains of Varget, Winchester brass, CCI 200 primers,168 grain Ballistic Silvertip from Combined Tech, trim to book, and Col at 2.75.
I worked this load up from minimum to maximum in 1 grain increments until groups started to tighten, then went 1/2 grain until Maxed out.
Hope this helps.

 

[onlybrowning]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I think I will try some other loads with the Varget today. I will start with the lower load at about 42.5gr and skip the ones I have tried and try the 47.0 gr. I realize 47.0 is above published maximum, but have seen no pressure warnings at all from 46.0. Maybe I'll try 46.5 too as 46.0 has given me the best accuracy so far. This was about 2" at 100yds :barf:
Just so everyone knows they aren't wasting their time with a bad setup...it is aI mentioned, a Browning A-bolt, with all of the screws tight, The barrel is not contacting anywhere, the barrel cleaned between grioups, letting barrel cool between shots, Leupold VXIII 2.8-8x36 scope with Leupold bases and rings which are also tight.

I am also thinking of haveing this rifle rebedded and trigger work done like I did on my 270, but although the trigger helped with the feel, the bedding did not change accuracy.

 

[onlybrowning]

Also, I wanted to say, if the charges I listed don't get me there, I think I will try some H-335. I want to see the huge fireball and blast everyone speaks of.

 

[onlybrowning]

Well, I got to test those loads today, and to my surprise I found a charge of Varget to be very accurate (finally!!!). I fired a 5 shot group at just under an inch. the only thing is that it is a very light 43.0 grains. Should be about 2450fps from a 22" barrel I guess. I keep the shots close anyway. Also, a friend sold me a new pound of H-380 for $10, so I may try this as well.

One question...I had very erradic results in order of powder charges. 43.0 was great and 43.5 was about 2". This trend continued-44.5 was pretty good again, and 45.0 was almost 3"! I have never seen this happen. Usually you find a ballpark that the gun likes and fine tune from there. Anyone else ever seen this happen?

 

[DAVID NANCARROW]

How many rounds have you run through the barrel? I understand this is a new rifle, and the barrel will act a bit strange until it is broken in. I would also suggest buying a box of Federal Gold Match 168 grain and see what your groups look like.

 

[onlybrowning]

The gun was bought used with less than 30 rounds through it. I have put about 50 through it. Buy ammo? But I like to make my own. Just kidding, that isn't a bad idea.

 

[T. O'Heir]

Begin with the 'starting' load from your manual and load 5 rounds. Go up by 1 grain, not two, until you get to the maximum load, loading 5 of each. Keep them separate either by marking the case head or in a marked box. Then shoot, off a bench, for group only. Shoot slowly and allow for barrel cooling time between strings of five. Use a different target for each load and mark what load was used on each. When you've found the most accurate load for that powder and bullet, use that load and sight in your rifle. This is the fastest and most accurate way of finding the load of a particular powder that shoots best in your rifle. 'Pet loads' for my rifles mean nothing in your's. Even two rifles exactly the same make and model will shoot the same load differently.
"...most have said it performs best when loaded full house..." Not necessarily in your rifle.

 

[DAVID NANCARROW]

Read the posts, T-he already has that covered. Right now he is trying to find out why the discrepencies in his loads.

 

[Powderman]

You might also take a look at your OAL.

Most rifles I have worked with shot to their best potential with the bullets seated no more than .005 off the lands. My most accurate rifle likes bullets only .002 off the lands.

For short to medium range shooting, I have found that VLD bullets offer little that a good regular bullet cannot deliver. The most important thing is consistency between bullets.

Try to find a bullet with an ogive that will allow seating close to the lands, yet will still fit well in the magazine.

Also, it is my experience that the max loads listed will seldom perform well for accuracy. I believe that you are already experiencing that.

Varget has given me very good accuracy in my M1A. So has IMR 4895.