Need expert evaluations on my range day...

[Warm Bore]

Hello all,

I have been having trouble keeping my groups in tight at 30 feet at the indoor range I frequent so I decided to do some bench testing. I went to an outdoor range today where I intended to test accuracy from my BHP and Kimber 1911. I bought a pistol rest and a good cross section of ammo for both - all FMJ. The range is 25 yards (75 feet) from bench to target. This is much further than I'm used to shooting with these guns. I'm right handed.

Kimber Custom Classic:

Average 50 shot group: 6" discounting called flyers.

Problem: The center of the 6" clusters of shots are 2" to the left of center and 2" high.

Browning Hi-Power

Average 50 shot group: Unknown

Problem: Fully half of the shots are off the paper to the left. Of 50 shots only 15 are on the paper with Winchester ammo (and this is from a rest). The Blazer ammo produced more holes, however the group is still 4" left of center. The Blazer group appears to be about 6" but this is only a guess from the 23 of 50 that are on the paper.

I wish I had a ransom rest.

All in all I'm pretty disappointed with the outcome. However, it does explain why I've been shooting so lousy at the indoor range. It also explains why I demolished my buddies target stand with my Kimber two weekends back.

What can I do to remedy these problems? Where should I start?

Thanks to all for the help.

Regards,

Warm Bore

 

[gyp_c2]

Geez...I think you need to back down to about 15 feet and start over...really. When you can get your shots in a nice group then you can adjust your sights. Get some confidence and move out again...Try it and don't get all crazy...Take your time and have some fun.

 

[Monkeyleg]

Warm Bore, the problem unfortunately is with you. If you were mixing different brands of ammo in your groups, that would just compound the problem. Stick with one brand for starters. Federal American Eagle has worked well in my Kimbers. For the bench shooting, make sure you have a firm rest for the gun and for your wrists. Also, be aware that when you're shooting from a bench, it's easy to change your head position which changes your sight picture. That's hard to do with 50 shot groups; try shooting five or ten shot groups keeping your head and gun in the same position. Try to keep everything consistent, including grip.

Trust me, I know how you feel on this. A couple of years ago I got back into pistol shooting after a very long hiatus. The guys at the range would jokingly ask if I brought my shotgun, because that's how bad my groups were. Now, I can keep just about all of my shots in a 3" circle at 50 feet, standing and shooting offhand. There are people on this board who can shoot a heck of a lot better than that, but I just view it as progress.

Good luck to you.

Dick

 

[Warm Bore]

Ok,

Let's clarify. I'm not new to shooting in the least. The Kimber was long over due for an accuracy test. I've had it about three years and it's been shot a lot but not seriously (maybe a little more than 3000 rounds). Both these guns have fixed sights or I would have tried to zero them.

1. I was not mixing the ammo. I ran a box of each through one brand at a time.

2. Although I agree that site picture can change with head posittion - it doesn't change the the fact that when the sites are lined up on target (from any angle) the bullet should go to POA. No brainer, right?

3. I shot 50 shots to find an average center. I expected the groups to be much smaller and with the BHP I expected the groups to be on the paper. It was long and deliberate range session. This was not a rapid fire session.

4. The pistol rest was solid. I was solid and consistent. In fact the guns were consistent too. The BHP just happened to be consistently on the edge of the paper. Although my shooting sessions are few and far between, I've put some great 2" groups up with the Kimber at 30 feet offhand (dumb luck?). The BHP is too new for any comparisons.

I use to have a circular chart that showed your shooting problem based on if you were left handed or right handed and where the POI was. I can't seem to find it. Shooting way left meant something though. Shooting high and left meant something too. Don't think it applies to bench rest shooting though.

I'm not saying this isn't me. It could very well be I've developed some sort of bad habit. I'm just saying I find it hard to believe I am this bad from a pistol rest where point of hold didn't change. The "left shooting" theme does seem to indicate me though.

Thanks,

Warm Bore

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Probably the best way to determine the source of the problem is to have someone else shoot the same guns and see if they get the same results. It would help if its someone who gets small groups with their own weapons.

THEN you'll know if its you, the ammo, the gun, or a mix of the three...

The chart you mentioned can be found at:

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/

Scroll down and look under the Perfecting Technique section, for Error Analysis and Correction. You'll find it there.

 

[JimFox]

Accuracy/POA/POI

I'm probably in the minority here, but I'd suggest a first step that involved spending a couple 3 days cleaning the barrels. It is more noticable in rifles - which are commonly shot at 100 yds or better - but barrels which are not absolutely clean to start with may provide groups which look much like shotgun patterns. Remember the old saw about the last tight dry patch through the barrel should show no disernable discoloration? Clean those barrels until you get that, then leave the barrel wet with Hoppes #9 for the night and try again to be really, really sure there isn't any discoloration.

Second, the advice to do your groups in units of 5 or 10 is good advice. Pistols will often change their point of impact - sometimes quite noticably - when the barrle/slide gets hot from a lot of rounds fed through quickly. It wouldn't supprise me if you could put 10 targets up and do a quick 10 rounds on each, and find that at the end of 100 rounds your POI was substantively different that when you'd begun.

3rd. Shooting to the left. This may be you. It may be the pistol(s). It may be the ammo. A Ransom Rest is good to determine the intrinsic accuracy of a pistol/load. It will not give you any guarentees as to where the gun will print with you holding it. Having someone else (skilled marksman) target the gun can give you an idea of what the gun (and that shooter) can do. It won't give you more than an (hopefull close) approximation of where the gun will shot for you.

Once you get the group size(s) down to something you consider acceptable - then if the POA is off from the POI (with you shooting) adjust the sights. It doesn't matter if Joe Blow, the range marksman, can drill out the 10 ring with your gun. If it shoots 2 inches to the left (and/or 2 inches high) for you, adjust the sights for you.

If, on the other hand, Joe Blow, the local range marksman can drill out the 10 ring and you're still shooting something that resembles a shotgun pattern (and way the hell to the west and north), then it's time to go to work on some of the basic drills (sight picture, hold, squeeze, etc.)

The point being - get your gun(s) doing the best that they can - then try to live up to them.

Just my opinion - and free advice is worth every nickle.

 

[Gonzo_308]

Warm bore I don't want to sound insulting but if you have two firearms that are shooting that badly at 30ft then you are either incredibly unlucky in your purchases or doing something VERY wrong. I don't know you but am wiling to bet it's the latter.

I think you should move in closer, say 15ft and try the same thing again using 1 kind of ammo and see what happens. If you are gettig the same results you should try something different with your point of aim.

Your point of aim doesn't equate to where the gun is really pointing. I would try the old Artillery method. Fire a shot and then adjust your point of aim to the point of impact if you end up chasing a hole around the paper you know it's either the sights on the gun or your sight picture. Both can be adjusted fairly easily. This is most likely where the problem lies. God luck

 

[railroader]

Warmbore, I don't know if this will help but I have been having similar trouble with getting decent groups with my hipower. Yesterday I had it and my kimber out at the range. I could get decent groups with the kimber but with the hipower I was all over the place. I went back to the range today to try the hipower again. What I found out was with my kimber the trigger has almost zero slack and is very crisp the hipower has some slack and the trigger is heavier. When shooting the highpower I wasn't taking up the slack then squeezing the trigger. When I paid more attention to the trigger my groups tightened up. Do like the others said and shoot maybe 3 to 5 shot groups at closer ranges say 10 yards. This way it is easier to tell where the gun is shooting. Both my kimber and my hipower did not shoot to point of aim when I got them. The kimber was about 9" low and 4" left. The hipower was 2" low and 2" left.Try it again from a rest but closer. You need to find exactly where the gun is shooting, you might need to drift the rear sights,on my kimber I had to drift the rear and file off half of the front sight. Hang in there, you will figure it out. Good luck.

[Edited by railroader on 05-28-2001 at 10:37 AM]

 

[Hal]

I'm far from an expert, but I do use a rest a lot. Here's a few things I ve found.


Either put something under the rest to get it up to a useable level, or use a lower seat. Rests right out of the box are far too low and using them that way places you in an unnatural position.

Next use a target half the size of what your using now. Using too large of a target distracts your attention from the front sight. If your front sight just barely covers the black, it's a perfect size for what your trying to accomplish right now. (aim small, miss small is a reality, not just a catchy quote from an excellent movie)

Use your left hand.BUT don't compensate by taking extra time to concentrate just yet. Using your weak hand is taking advantage of the "other shooter that's always with you". In theory, and I've pretty much proved it to myself, any bad habits on the trigger will mirror themself w/a weak hand series. Pay attention to what I emphasized. You WILL shoot better weak handed than stong handed from a rest if you take your time. It happens. BUT it's a temporary thing. It falls off fast. You can go down that path later, right now you just want to find out if theres a problem w/your trigger work.



It sounds like you made the same exact *mistake* I did when I bought a rest a couple of years ago. ie: Too much confidence in the rest, and not enough confidence in the shooter. Care to prove this statement? Easy. Put another taget up right next to the one your using for your rested shots and fire 3 shots at the center w/out the rest. They WILL be in a nice tight group.

I just noticed your in Ohio. Where abouts? I'm in the Akron area and generally shoot every weekend at Kelbly's in Massilon. I have a couple of very accurate .22's that I use to help iron out the technique kinks that your welcome to try if your close enough.

 

[Zander]

I'm going to guess that your problem is flinching in anticipation of recoil. Do your first few shots go where you want them to? Do things deteriorate rapidly thereafter?

If you have the same problem with a smaller/milder caliber pistol from the rest, then check your grip...shooting two different pistols in the same outing can hamper your diagnosis.

Good luck!

 

[Warm Bore]

Ok,

Lots to cover here.

First thanks for all the replies. It's been most helpful.

I spent the last few evenings breaking down my form and it does indeed appear that I have developed a bad habit in trigger control with the Kimber. Squeezing the trigger does indeed draw the front sight slightly to the left during dry fire. I received my Allan Smith slim panels today which I installed. This has helped considerably, though it still happens too frequently for my taste. I'll need some more practice.

However, curiously, I get ZERO movement on the front sight with the BHP during dry fire. It does not move one iota when the I squeeze the hammer. Yet my groups where noticeably worse and much further to the left with this gun. The trigger on the BHP has about 1/4" take-up but and stops firmly at the break. It breaks like glass. And there is no noticeable over-travel. In fact I'd say it currently has a better trigger than the Kimber. The Kimber's trigger has about 1/16" to 1/8" take-up and has a heavier pull to break over than the BHP. The Kimber has about 1/16" over-travel. So somehow I'm getting worse groups off the better trigger.

I'm going to have another fellow who shoots 1911's fire these guns for accuracy before I make any changes to the guns. We'll see how he does.

Thanks to everyone for the great tips. I'll keep everything in mind.

Regards,

Warm Bore