Need 223 Die Advice

[jtmckinney]

Bullet, powder and other I will figure out myself or make another post. I went to Midway and got mired in the quigmire of choices for a set of dies to get started making quality ammo.

This will be the first attempt from me to make truely accurate ammo for my gun. I have a CZ 527 Varmit on the way and I am putting a target scope on it. In the past all I wanted or needed was hunting ammo and that is easy. For this project I want to achieve best accuracy.

What I am wanting is a working combination of sizing, bullet seating and either roll or taper crimp dies, or whatever.

For now all I want to do is feed single action, one at a time.

Any help appreciated. Thanks!
James

 

[Shoney]

jtmckinney

You didn't mention which twist you your rifle has the 9 or the 12?

The 9 twist will shoot the heavier bullets and will do better with any of the micrometer adjust seating dies for shooting over 300 yards with heavier bullets.

The 12 twist will be limited to around 300 yd, maybe with 55 gr bullets. And perhaps a hair farther if your 12 will stabilize the 60+ grain weight bullets. A good but inexpensive die will probably do as well as the more expensive models.

Dies are only part of the entire accuracy package. You will also need a premium bullet that your weapon likes, a powder that gives good accuracy in your weapon, and setup of the distance off the lands that give best accuracy. Their "ain't no free lunch here", time and experimentation are required.

 

[cracked butt]

You don't want a crimp die- no crimping, period.
The most important thing you need is concentricity- everything being put together in a straight line.
Most commercial die sets will do this, but some just work better. The 'best' are probably Wilson dies that are used with an arbor press, but they are expensive. http://www.lewilson.com/stainlesssteelnecksizedie.html
FWIW, I load my Highpower match loads with Lee dies on a lee turret press. Pretty much everything freefloats (with the exception of the neck expander ball) and freely aligns. The bullet runout is very small. A trick that helps on most presses (Idea taken from one of Glenn Zediker's books) is to remove the shellholder clip from the ram of your press, and use an O-ring from the hardware store to retain the shellholder. This can reduce bullet runout considerably.


I also Turn the necks with a RCBS hand neck turner- you want the necks to be consistant thickness all the way around so that they don't misalign in the chamber. You can buy premium brass and get the same result, for the most part, however.

 

[80viking]

I would buy the Lee Deluxe Die set, it has the Lee Collet die in it. The Collet die really works as claimed. Its a no brainer for a bolt gun.

 

[cracked butt]

I would buy the Lee Deluxe Die set, it has the Lee Collet die in it.

I'm not sold on lee collet dies, I've had too much variation in neck tension using them, but the 'dead length' seater die that comes with that kit is the cat's meow.

 

[Clark]

A) For years I used the Redding FL "S" die until I did a test of all the 223 dies I had. It turns out that was my worst die.

The Lee Collet Neck die is the cheapest, ugliest, most accurate sizer die of them all.

If you have a non factory tight neck chamber and turned neck brass, you may do just as well with a neck sizing bushing.
Otherwise, steer clear of that stuff.

b) For seating, I like Forster. Sliding seater dies from Redding are just as good, more expensive, and easier to read. They are both built per the expired Purdie patent
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3440923.pdf

C) For pushing the shoulder back, I like Forster FL dies with the neck honed out for $10 at Forster, not by me, but any bump die should do.

d) For trimming, I have an come up with my own system with an RCBS trim pro 3- way cutter, Lee lock stud, Lee shell holder, Rockwell mill, Kurt vise, vise grips. I have since leaned trimming abstinence. Keep the cases dedicated to one rifle, the shoulder not getting pushed back except when needed, and then only by .001", and at 65kpsi the brass should go 20 firings between trimmings, and then just throw it away. Never trim.

 

[physikal]

You don't want a crimp die- no crimping, period.
The most important thing you need is concentricity- everything being put together in a straight line.
Most commercial die sets will do this, but some just work better. The 'best' are probably Wilson dies that are used with an arbor press, but they are expensive. http://www.lewilson.com/stainlesssteelnecksizedie.html
FWIW, I load my Highpower match loads with Lee dies on a lee turret press. Pretty much everything freefloats (with the exception of the neck expander ball) and freely aligns. The bullet runout is very small. A trick that helps on most presses (Idea taken from one of Glenn Zediker's books) is to remove the shellholder clip from the ram of your press, and use an O-ring from the hardware store to retain the shellholder. This can reduce bullet runout considerably.


I also Turn the necks with a RCBS hand neck turner- you want the necks to be consistant thickness all the way around so that they don't misalign in the chamber. You can buy premium brass and get the same result, for the most part, however.

You say no crimping period. What about lee factory crimp in an ar-15?

 

[m&p45acp10+1]

I have loaded thousands of rounds of .223 Rem for my Savage Mod 12 LRVT and for several friends ARs. Never crimped a single one. Have never had a problem with setback. Neck tension works if the round was loaded properly.

For a bolt action the Lee Deluxe rifle dies are great. I get astounding accuracy out of the rounds I have loaded with them. 1/4 moa 3 shot groups at 100 yards are achievable with my rifle most days when I do my part. If someone better were shooting it I am guessing it would deliver a single tiny hole.

I have a CZ 527 American in .221 Rem Fireball that I load for with a Lee Pacesetter die set and get one hole groups all day long with it. They are great rifles. With my shooting a more expensive die set would not make a noticable differance.

 

[jtmckinney]

I Will Order Lee Delux 3-Die Set Today

Thanks for all the replies. Good info!

Sounds like this is a place to start and we will see where it goes from there. I use Lee die sets for 40sw and 357 Sig. I modified the bullet seating plugs by machining out the inner center on both so the seating plug would contact the bullet on the oglive instead of the nose. Bullets were Hornaday HP/XTP and the seating plugs were closing in the hollow point and COL was inconsistant. This is of course a totally different die set and application and I may have had some other problems that this solution covered up.

I am also not in love with the aluminum parts and o-rings but for the price there is no way I can get hurt.

For this reloading project I plan to start with Hornaday A-Max bullets. we will see if I can shoot the 75 grain. Rifle I have on order has 1-9 twist. The local range I shoot at has max 100 yards so that is where I will have to start.

This is my first "Brand New In The Box" center fire rifle so I am looking forward to getting it. Should be able to pick it up next Saturday.

Once again Thanks!
James

 

[m&p45acp10+1]

I would give a recomendaton to try the 68 grain BTHP match bullets from Hornady too. I have had very good results with them using a couple of different powders. Mine does very well at 100 yards with 55 grain bullets and 25 grains of H-335. I swithc between 55 Grain VMax and 68 grain BTHP match depending on which I can find, and which one is cheaper.

For powders H-335, Varget, and Reloader 15 work well. I have had good results with the heavier bullets and Acurate 2015 also.

 

[223 shooter]

Reloaded for a variety of .223s and the seating die I have always used is a Forster Benchrest Seater.

I was pretty skeptical on the Lee Collet die at first but it has always resulted in extremely accurate ammo. It is the only neck die I use now.

With the 1 in 9" twist the 69 Sierra MatchKing is one you might try later too. It has performed well in both of my 1 in 9" twist 223s.

 

[flashhole]

I'm in the camp of Clark and 223 shooter for die selection. Nothing beats the Forster in-line seat die for minimizing runout. If your gun has a tight chamber you will be better off FL sizing your brass but you only want ~.002" bump on the shoulder. My bullet of choice is the Sierra 63 grain Semi Point in my 1:9 twist 223 Kimber Longmaster Classic.

 

[mehavey]

Is the Redding Competition die set left out of this selection for a reason? For my .223 I've got RCBS, Lee, RBCS Comp and Redding Competion.

Redding is what I turn for absolute precision.

 

[flashhole]

If you had the Forster dies the Redding dies would just stay in the case.

 

[jtmckinney]

I am pretty sure the Lee Delux st was available this morning but it wasn't this afternoon when I actually placed the order. I wound up buying RCBS 2 die set and the Lee neck sizing collet die as a separate item. This cost me a few extra dollars but I am happy.

With scope, rings, dies, bullets and brass it was over $650.00. Only money so who cares.

Thanks to all those that responded. If everything goes to plan I will be able to put everything together next weekend.

James

 

[m&p45acp10+1]

Looks like you came out quite well. I recomend with the seating die to follow the directions for seating without crimping. I do not crimp and have never had to. I have FL sized brass for AR platforms with the RCBS Small Base FL Sizing die to see how well it worked. Though when it came to seating I just adjusted to keep it to within magazine lengh for reliable loading.

 

[cracked butt]

What about lee factory crimp in an ar-15?

No need to- the AR-15 is neither heavy recoiling nor does it shoot heavy bullets. Lee factory crimp only damages the bulllet jacket and produces another source of inaccuracy. If you are getting better accuracy with a crimp, it just means there is something wrong with your neck tension to begin with.

 

[Rimfire5]

jtmckinney

I have a CZ 527 in .223 that I got last October.

It has a 1:9 twist also. I have shot and measured 253 groups of hand loads.

I have managed to find a load that it likes (under 0.5 inches on average) with 50, 52, 55, 60 and 65 grain bullets. It has 11 different loads across those weights that it shoot on average under 0.5 inches (actually it averaged 0.467across 76 measured groups.)

I think you chose a great rifle. You will love the set trigger (mine is a crisp 2 lbs.)

I have the broadest success rate with H4895 powder with 55 grain bullets (it seems to really like Sierra #1345, #1360, and # 1390 bullets. It has produced best groups 0.117 and 0.153 and 0.173 with them. It also shoots 52 grain bullets well. Interestingly, it best overall average is with a 65 grain Sierra # 1395 bullet at an astonishing 0.376 average group size.

None of the loads that produced the best results are pushing the velocity curve. They are right in the middle of the range.

I have tried H355 & H4895 powders and got the best results with H4895. I had thought that the H335 was the one to use but, on a chance, I loaded some H4895 and it out shot the H335 and have since concentrated on the H 4895.

 

[wncchester]

"The Lee Collet Neck die is the cheapest, ugliest, most accurate sizer die of them all."

Ineligent language but absolutly correct! I would strongly suggest any noob looking for a good start get Lee's Delux die set and add the stand alone crimper. Crimping is no magic thing one way or the other, like anything else in reloading no one can say what it will do without testing it. But, like anything else in reloading, if any specific step such as neck sizing or crimping is poorly done it will be harmful.