Nedd help choosing an all purpose shtf rifle

[CANIS]

Need help choosing an all purpose shtf rifle

Call me paranoid, but with the direction I think this whole terrorism thing is going to go over the next year or years, I would feel much better able to protect my family if I had a good rifle.

I have several handguns and am proficient in them. I always qualified high expert with my m-16 in the Marines and am very comfortable with that type of weapon and round.

Since I am not a rifle guy, what suggestions would you guys have for a medium to close range combat weapon that would have hi cap magazines available and keep the total price tag including extra mags and ammo to $1000 or less?

Would a "combat" shotgun be a better choice to fill in where the handgun lets off?

I'm looking to purchase this weapon within the next 2 weeks here in the DFW area.

Thanks in advance for your help.

canis

 

[Steve Smith]

In the paraphrased words of Art, "The scenario you envision will most likely not play out the way you thought it would." It's doubtful that 3 million Afgans, 75% of which are illiterate, will launch a ground war on the US. Granted, they'd probably have some back up from many other Islam nations, but a ground was is still really doubtful. However, I know where you're coming from. On the 11th, I went and started packing my bug-out bag, as it was something that I'd been putting off a long time and it MADE ME FEEL LIKE I WAS DOING SOMETHING to prepare myself. Getting "ready" is mainly psychological for the individual here in the US, but it helps.

I have quite a few FAL mags loaded and in my assualt vest, along with a few more in my ALICE pack, which is packed. My FAL is an STG-58 with a SUIT scope attached and sighted in for 300 and 500 yds and has an illuminator.

If you're serious about having some good armament, an FAL is hard to beat...checkout DSA's parts gun, and check out SUIT sights. Get some ammo (surplus) and practice with it, and not just on the bench.

Go ahead guys, rake me over the coals...I'll bring the marshmallows.

 

[blades67]

Check out a Bushmaster at a store near you.

 

[CANIS]

I'm not so much worried about the Afghan army as I am the nut jobs already living here. for all I know, the guy I buy my morning paper from is waiting for his marching orders to begin his own jihad. The prospect of lawless looting also prompts me to find solace in something other than my 4" 686.

ANd in good ol Texas, I can carry it in my vehicle ready to rock!

Keep the input coming guys! I appreciate it!

canis

 

[dZ]

if the s impacts the windmere
tactical reloads may be from available resourced inventories

maintaining parity of magazine supply with standard issue arms is
a good thing

dZ

 

[Guyon]

Bushmaster, shushmaster. The ARs are nice guns, but....

Every wonder why, in every single newsreel of Afghanistan, every male seems to be holding an AK? Those people have been living in **** hitting the fan for decades now--no "IF" or "WHEN" about it. I know that Kalashnikovs are plentiful in that part of the world, but the Afghanis wouldn't use the guns if they weren't effective and utterly reliable.

An AK may not be as accurate as a .223, but it's always going to go bang--even in the most extreme conditions, from arid deserts to frozen mountain tops. It's stock makes a nice head buster. It's simple, and even a child can disassemble, assemble in minutes. (In fact, I'll bet your average Afghani boy can do it with his eyes closed.) Parts are plentiful, and you can buy 7.62x39 for a song. If you want to plink at long distances, shoot competitively, or if you just feel drawn to one of those mean black rifles, get an AR. If you want a SHTF rifle, get an AK.

 

[lonegunman]

The problem with AK's is they are crap.

Going bang every time, and spewing lead God knows where, is only going to kill your opponent if it gives him a heart attack.

You want to actually hit the target, right?

Springfield M1A's are great, but may be a little bulky for your particular mission. Nothing wrong with a Garand either, but also a little bulky.

An AR 15 fits the bill nicely, and you are already familiar with them, so thats what I would go for.

Another option would be a Mini 14, or Mini 30, but their accuracy may be a problem (according to some, but I have always had good results) and getting reliable magazines is kind of iffy with them.

 

[eviltravis]

Another vote for the bushmaster here. I can carry a lot of 5.56 ammo, and the preban hicaps are plentifull.

 

[8200 rpm]

The problem with AK's is they are crap.

I'm gonna have to agree with lonegunman on this one.

AK's have got to be one of the most overrated rifles in recent American keyboard commando history. So many people spew gunrag rhetoric like a parrot about how damned reliable an AK is. But how many of these people actually buried THEIR AK's in mud or in sand or dropped it out of a helicopter? How many AK parrots dug up THEIR AK's up out of a dead Viet Cong grave?

Just because you see a bunch of illiterate third world country 14 year olds carrying AK's doesn't mean that they are the best rifles in the world. Do you think that these people have a SELECTION of assault rifles to choose from? They carry it because either the Chinese or the Russians supplied the rifles or the rocks and scrap metal to build them.

I owned an AK for a short period of time. I bought it along with eight 30 round magazines and a couple hundred rounds of ammo just to hold me over until I could afford a Bushmaster Dissipator. The problem with the rifle was that it was put together by chimps with crude hand tools (if you could call it that). The front sight was canted badly and the finish was sprayed on. Don't even get me started on the thing the commies consider "sights"!

I've seen AK's so incompentently put together (SAR-1) that the trigger pin fell out. Didn't go bang anymore.

No thanks! I'll stick to guns designed by people with some knowledge of engineering.

 

[Art Eatman]

8200rpm, don't confuse the design with the execution of manufacture/assembly.

If a scenario includes a mob of looters in an urban environment, adequate accuracy is anything under four MOA. I just measured my "Wish you hadn't done that!" zone; it's 12" by 18". At 100 yards, people are easy targets.

It's wiser to leave a mob alone until they're close enough for one's skill level to enable rapid hits on separate targets. I wouldn't engage a mob "way out there", were I in an urban environment.

A Mini, an AR-type or a Kalashnikov clone will all serve pretty much equally well. Any bullet-style will serve equally well in an anti-personnel situation--although I'm an old meanie, and would prefer soft-point bullets.

If one is to organize into a neighborhood group of mutual support, some probably should have weapons of the battle rifle style. Tactics for the group then become an important aspect of one's scenarios. Note scenarios, plural.

If one of your scenarios considers not being at home when everything goes wrong, you'd better have thought of having "stuff" in your vehicle. The aforementioned go-bangs "travel well". Short, rugged, handy...

$0.02, Art

 

[HK1]

I would get an AK......nah I wont go there..seriously..I would buy a 308 bolt action long range shooter to be PC correct..I am not a fan of 223 or any AR type,,but at this time the bushy is the best if you just gotta have one...the fal and HK is an obvious choice in a MBR...but range is so limited its uses for me in the country are virtually nil....the MBRs do shine in an urban environment...I do not know if you are a country hillbilly or a city dweller and that would depend on what you need..i still like a bolt action with a 26inch barrel in 308win....they are plentiful and most importantly cheap...take a look at a rem 700pss or a FN police tactical or maybe even a browning a-bolt....these guns dont give you a large magazine supply...but peace of mind at 600 yards is what I seek..my 2 cents..HK out

 

[PreserveFreedom]

Call me paranoid...

Na...you are just realizing what we realized a while ago. I consider myself a handgunner but I still wouldn't venture far from my trusty rifle.

If I was you,I would go with an AR15 or a Mini 14. The reason being that 223Rem is a real nice round for close range SHTF. It is also what our military is using, in case you ever have to borrow. If you choose the Mini 14, you will spend less on the rifle. If you choose the AR15, you will spend less on quality magazines.

 

[zouave]

Would a "combat" shotgun be a better choice to fill in where the handgun lets off?

CANIS,

I think it would. It doesn't have to be a "combat" shotgun as any good 12ga pump would provide adequate protection for your family.

Don't get me wrong, I am quite fond of "assault rifles", and I own most of the ones mentioned above, but a shotgun would fit the bill nicely........

Zouave

 

[Quartus]

I always qualified high expert with my m-16 in the Marines and am very comfortable with that type of weapon and round.

There's your answer. A QUALITY AR-15. It will do the job, and you alreadly know how to do your part.


Art, I disagree about mobs. Hit 'em as far out as you can, and that may very well be the end of it. Mobs aren't known for courage or good battle plans.

Why let them get in close? That's never a good place for an enemy.

 

[lonegunman]

Captain, I gotta agree with you... when it comes to mobs, its probably better to break 'em up at 300 yds than wait til they are in your face.

 

[hkg3]

An HK-91 is the only way to go IMHO. Since you’re in an NFA state (Texas) and if you could afford it I would get a G3.

 

[LoneStranger]

Art Eatman, I too would have to agree with Captain Hoek in regards to mobs. There was a previous thread in regards to what to do if looters were coming and I have been cogitating, it hurts it hurts, on tactics.
If you are dealing with looters and small time hood gangs there is no cohesive reason for them to stick together and act as a unified group. This leaves them open to harrassing fire which will discourage those who are looking for a little quick and easy action. What it will also do is bring to the fore those who will yell "Follow Me!" If you happen to have some buddies at that time with good long range rifles they should target these people. That will double the discouragement factor for followers. No leaders and leaders get dead.
Ultimately you don't want to get involved with mobs account you cannot predict what will happen. So distance makes you happier and the more distant you keep them the fonder you will be of the situation.

 

[Guyon]

Not all AKs are crap, and somebody's got to defend this rifle, so...

They carry it because either the Chinese or the Russians supplied the rifles or the rocks and scrap metal to build them.

You're only helping make my point. The Chinese and Russians know a thing or two about fighting in less-than-desirable conditions, where the Kalashnikov design shines. This design has remained in place because of it's inherent reliability.

Going bang every time, and spewing lead God knows where, is only going to kill your opponent if it gives him a heart attack. You want to actually hit the target, right?

CANIS asked about medium to close range. Here, AK accuracy is more than adequate. If it weren't, nobody would ever get shot in Afghanistan. If you want a long range gun, you ought to follow HK1's advice and get a bolt action rifle.

You asked about a rifle, and I gave you my opinion about a rifle, but to be honest, the shotgun is probably the better choice for defense. It has a wider range of applications, is a little less visible on the eyebrow-raising "What the hell is that???!!!" scale, and it is a heckuva lot cheaper than either an AR or a good AK.

If you want to spend a grand and join the AR bandwagon, that's fine. The better ARs are good guns. Just don't fall victim to the delusion that, since you spent so much money on it, it has to be a more useful, reliable assault rifle than anything else out there.

Or you can spend about half that and get a good AK variant (eg. Robarms VEPR II) that will handle any short to medium range problems you might have.

Or you can just buy a pump shotgun for around $300 and use the rest of the money to buy a whole buncha 12 gauge ammo.

Your choice... Ain't America wonderful?

 

[Art Eatman]

Okay, mobs. First off, this means know your neighbors. Are you the only guy in three blocks who has done any preparation? Or, on your own block? (If you are, I strongly suggest you move.)
How do you know a mob is coming? Ever think of that? I mean, if you're watching CNN or The Simpsons, what lets you know your own neighborhood has a problem? How do you hear folks 300 yards away, when "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire" is on? Do you work? How do you do anything about defending your home when you're not there?

SHTF will either ooze upon us over time, or will come so fast you'll have no warning. I have no idea which. Further, a suitcase nuke in NYC won't affect neighborhood life in Denver. If you're a doctor in Chicago, do you close your office and stay home, watching out the windows? Will the fan even start spinning in Austintatious?

Obviously I have many more questions than answers.

I'm not saying not to worry, don't plan. I'm just saying that the whole deal is a lot more complex than most folks seem to think.

Shifting emphasis: We just had 9-11. To me, an obvious question is, how does a new gun or more ammo make you more secure against "terrorism"? How are you safer from a car bomb? How are you safer from a 9-11 repetition? How many Islamic terrorists in the U.S. are gonna run amuck down a city street?

When you look at the home-grown nut-cases and at the existing hatreds which are right here, right now, I suggest you plan in terms of a local problem which is most likely limited to some local area. If the probabilities are that things will go "Pop!" nearby to where you now live, moving away, right now, seems wiser than adding arms to your collection.

Take any of the past riots we've had in the U.S., with burning of areas of cities. How far across town did the rioters go? Can you identify similar areas, today? How far are you from such areas?

I dunno. I was poor when I left college to go work in Detroit. Ditto when I went back home to Austin. Not all that well off when I moved here to the desert. To me, then, "I can't afford to move." is a bit of a copout. I've had four "careers" while in cities; obviously, changing jobs never seemed like vast emotional trauma.

Kinda like driving a car: I'd just as soon not have the wreck, in the first place. I live like I drive--a bit too fast, but careful.

, Art

 

[Dave R]

One more defense of the AK. Its accuracy has been slammed, but the first time I tried, I hit a propane tank 9 out of 10 at 220 measured yards, using the stock iron sights and a seated position with "improvised" rest and Wolf ammo. That's good enough for me, for defensive purposes.

This was with a SAR-3, an AK variant in .223. 1/3 the cost of an AR. Less accurate, to be sure, but apparently accurate enough. If I ever get better sights for it, I'll let you know what it can really do.

If I had the bucks, I'd get an AR. Probably will next year. But I'm gonna keep the SAR, too. Its a fun shooter, and effective as an SHTF rifle.