Name the K frames please?
- Thread starter dyl
- Start date
K-frames in .357 magnum:
Models 13, 19, 65, 66
13 - blue with fixed sights
19 - blue with adj sights
65 - stainless, fixed sights
66 - stainless, adj sights
For an explanation of model changes (now out of date), look at http://www.handloads.com/misc/Smith.Model.Changes.asp
Models 13, 19, 65, 66
13 - blue with fixed sights
19 - blue with adj sights
65 - stainless, fixed sights
66 - stainless, adj sights
For an explanation of model changes (now out of date), look at http://www.handloads.com/misc/Smith.Model.Changes.asp
the K frame 22s and 38s are,
10 M&P 38 fixed sights ( a few made in 32/20 also)
12 heavy brl 38 fixed
14 Target masterpiece 38
15 Combat Masterpiece 38
17 K22 masterpiece
18 K-22 Combat Masterpiece
48 K22 Magnum
M-53 22 Rem Jet
64 Stainless 38 M&P
67 Stainless 38 Combat masterpiece
10 M&P 38 fixed sights ( a few made in 32/20 also)
12 heavy brl 38 fixed
14 Target masterpiece 38
15 Combat Masterpiece 38
17 K22 masterpiece
18 K-22 Combat Masterpiece
48 K22 Magnum
M-53 22 Rem Jet
64 Stainless 38 M&P
67 Stainless 38 Combat masterpiece
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.......... ^^ That's as clear and uncluttered as it gets. ^^
The model 66 is the only one still in production.
The 19 was a very high production model. And that's a good thing because they are rather coveted by revolver enthusiasts. With a little patience, good ones can be found at reasonable prices. What's considered to be "reasonable" is variable and a matter of opinion, however. Prices are moving up.
The problem with S&W's model numbering system is that, while it originally made sense, they ran out of numbers in a particular series and thus had to introduce new number series for a given frame size. For example, any S&W with a two-digit model number beginning with 1 will be a K-Frame. Those models are as follows:
M10- fixed sight carbon steel .38 Special
M11- fixed sight carbon steel .38 S&W
M12- fixed sight aluminum frame .38 Special
M13- fixed sight carbon steel .357 Magnum
M14- adjustable sight carbon steel .38 Special with 6 or 8 3/8" barrel
M15- adjustable sight carbon steel .38 Special with 2 or 4" barrel
M16- adjustable sight carbon steel .32 S&W Long
M17- adjustable sight carbon steel .22 Long Rifle with 6 or 8 3/8 barrel
M18- adjustable sight carbon steel .22 Long Rifle with 2 or 4" barrel
M19- adjustable sight carbon steel .357 Magnum
However, as S&W continued to introduce new models, they needed new model numbers so they broke away from this original system. Stainless K-Frames are as follows:
M64- fixed sight stainless .38 Special
M65- fixed sight stainless .357 Magnum
M66- adjustable sight stainless .357 Magnum
M67- adjustable sight stainless .38 Specail
M617- adjustable sight stainless .22 Long Rifle
Furthermore, S&W has also made one K-Frame with a scandium-alloy frame:
M315 Night Guard- fixed sight scandium-alloy .38 Special
This, of course, does not include variations of the K-Frame which were discontinued prior to the introduction of model numbers in 1957 such as the M&P in calibers like .38 Long Colt, .32 S&W Long, or .32-20.
M10- fixed sight carbon steel .38 Special
M11- fixed sight carbon steel .38 S&W
M12- fixed sight aluminum frame .38 Special
M13- fixed sight carbon steel .357 Magnum
M14- adjustable sight carbon steel .38 Special with 6 or 8 3/8" barrel
M15- adjustable sight carbon steel .38 Special with 2 or 4" barrel
M16- adjustable sight carbon steel .32 S&W Long
M17- adjustable sight carbon steel .22 Long Rifle with 6 or 8 3/8 barrel
M18- adjustable sight carbon steel .22 Long Rifle with 2 or 4" barrel
M19- adjustable sight carbon steel .357 Magnum
However, as S&W continued to introduce new models, they needed new model numbers so they broke away from this original system. Stainless K-Frames are as follows:
M64- fixed sight stainless .38 Special
M65- fixed sight stainless .357 Magnum
M66- adjustable sight stainless .357 Magnum
M67- adjustable sight stainless .38 Specail
M617- adjustable sight stainless .22 Long Rifle
Furthermore, S&W has also made one K-Frame with a scandium-alloy frame:
M315 Night Guard- fixed sight scandium-alloy .38 Special
This, of course, does not include variations of the K-Frame which were discontinued prior to the introduction of model numbers in 1957 such as the M&P in calibers like .38 Long Colt, .32 S&W Long, or .32-20.
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Mike Irwin
Staff
"M64- fixed sight stainless .38 Special
M65- fixed sight stainless .357 Magnum
M66- adjustable sight stainless .357 Magnum
M67- adjustable sight stainless .38 Specail
M617- adjustable sight stainless .22 Long Rifle"
Technically speaking, those are NOT K frame revolvers.
They're F frames.
The stainless steel revolvers have a different factory frame designation.
A stainless J frame is an E frame.
A stainless L frame is an H frame.
A stainless N frame is a G frame.
M65- fixed sight stainless .357 Magnum
M66- adjustable sight stainless .357 Magnum
M67- adjustable sight stainless .38 Specail
M617- adjustable sight stainless .22 Long Rifle"
Technically speaking, those are NOT K frame revolvers.
They're F frames.
The stainless steel revolvers have a different factory frame designation.
A stainless J frame is an E frame.
A stainless L frame is an H frame.
A stainless N frame is a G frame.
carguychris
New member
A few more notes...
.38 Military & Police: Fixed rear sight, tapered barrel, .38Spl [common] or .38LC [uncommon, early guns only]
.38 Military & Police Target: Prewar .38 M&P with adjustable rear sight
.32-20 Hand Ejector: Similar to .38 M&P but chambered in .32-20 Winchester
.32-20 Hand Ejector Target: Same basic deal as with .38 M&P Target
.38 Victory Revolver: .38 M&P produced with phosphate finish for US military during WWII, barrel length usually 4"
.38/200 British Service Revolver: Similar to .38 M&P but chambered in .38 S&W for WWII British military, original barrel length usually 5" but cut-down examples are VERY common, and these are often found with chambers lengthened to allow .38Spl to be fired
K-XX Masterpiece: Adjustable rear sight, heavy ribbed barrel with Patridge front sight, barrel length usually 6" or 8-3/8", XX is the caliber designation- 22 = .22LR, 32 = .32 S&W Long, 38 = .38Spl
K-XX Combat Masterpiece: Similar to the above, but with more slender and generally shorter (usually 4") barrel with Baughman ramp front sight
The .32-20 models were permanently dropped from production at the onset of WWII, thus they have no model-numbered successors. The .38 M&P became the M10 and the .38/200 became the M11. The K-38, K-32, and K-22 Masterpieces became the M14, M16, and M17 respectively. The K-38 and K-22 Combat Masterpieces became the M15 and M18 respectively.
The .38 M&P Airweight and .357 Combat Magnum were introduced in the mid-1950's but became the M12 and M19 more or less immediately; non-model-numbered examples are very rare.
S&W also made several .22LR and .32 Long prewar target models, but these are also quite rare; same goes for the K-32 Combat Masterpiece and .32 M&P, a pair of postwar .32 Long models that were dropped before 1957 due to negligible sales.
Webleymkv, the M315 was chambered in .38 Special+P.Webleymkv said:
Correct. FWIW the more commonplace pre-1957 named K frames are as follows:Webleymkv said:
.38 Military & Police: Fixed rear sight, tapered barrel, .38Spl [common] or .38LC [uncommon, early guns only]
.38 Military & Police Target: Prewar .38 M&P with adjustable rear sight
.32-20 Hand Ejector: Similar to .38 M&P but chambered in .32-20 Winchester
.32-20 Hand Ejector Target: Same basic deal as with .38 M&P Target
.38 Victory Revolver: .38 M&P produced with phosphate finish for US military during WWII, barrel length usually 4"
.38/200 British Service Revolver: Similar to .38 M&P but chambered in .38 S&W for WWII British military, original barrel length usually 5" but cut-down examples are VERY common, and these are often found with chambers lengthened to allow .38Spl to be fired
K-XX Masterpiece: Adjustable rear sight, heavy ribbed barrel with Patridge front sight, barrel length usually 6" or 8-3/8", XX is the caliber designation- 22 = .22LR, 32 = .32 S&W Long, 38 = .38Spl
K-XX Combat Masterpiece: Similar to the above, but with more slender and generally shorter (usually 4") barrel with Baughman ramp front sight
The .32-20 models were permanently dropped from production at the onset of WWII, thus they have no model-numbered successors. The .38 M&P became the M10 and the .38/200 became the M11. The K-38, K-32, and K-22 Masterpieces became the M14, M16, and M17 respectively. The K-38 and K-22 Combat Masterpieces became the M15 and M18 respectively.
The .38 M&P Airweight and .357 Combat Magnum were introduced in the mid-1950's but became the M12 and M19 more or less immediately; non-model-numbered examples are very rare.
S&W also made several .22LR and .32 Long prewar target models, but these are also quite rare; same goes for the K-32 Combat Masterpiece and .32 M&P, a pair of postwar .32 Long models that were dropped before 1957 due to negligible sales.
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While technically correct, that distinction is, AFAIK, only used by the S&W factory. For the purposes of grips, holsters, speedloaders, and to a large degree parts interchangeability, K-Frames and F-Frames are interchangeable.
You are of course correct, that was a typo on my part that is now corrected.
Also, there are two other K-Frames that I forgot to mention: One is the M13 Aircrewman. This revolver was made in very small numbers for the U.S. military and is not the same as the later M13 M&P .357 Magnum. The M13 Aircrewman is basically a M12 fitted with an aluminum cylinder to make it even lighter. These revolvers were eventually deemed unsafe to fire by S&W and any one of them returned to S&W for repair will come back to its owner with a steel replacement cylinder. Because the M13 Aircrewman is so rare, it has become a valuable collectors item and anyone who owns one is advised to neither send it to S&W for repair nor attempt to fire it. The other is the M547 which was a carbon steel K-Frame chambered for 9mm Parabellum.
FWIW, the K-Frames are probably the easiest frame size to keep track of because there are so few models with three-digit model numbers. The most confusing, IMHO, are the J-Frames not only because of the higher prevalence of three digit model numbers, but also because there are models which were made in more than one caliber (the M60 is a good example of this), Model numbers which are shared between the J-Frame and the Older I-Frame (Models 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, and 35), and the fact that there are two different J-Frames: the original and the post-1999 Magnum J-Frame.
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Northrider
New member
I found this post to be very informative and appreciate it a lot,and I am not trying to hijack it, but for me it brings up another question: Is there a way to visually tell the difference between the different frames? I know it sounds pretty elementary, but since I have only 1 S & W revolver (Model 19 in .357), I see posts about different frames and am left wondering how to tell them apart without carrying a book about S & W around with me.
Thanks in advance and I hope this is not detracting from the original post.
Shoot Safe and Often
Thanks in advance and I hope this is not detracting from the original post.
Shoot Safe and Often
If you've got a good eye for size, then you can usually tell them apart that way. S&W hand-ejector frame sizes in order from smallest to largest are as follows: M-Frame (long discontinued predates model numbers), I-Frame (discontinued), J-Frame (discontinued), Magnum J-Frame, K-Frame, L-Frame, N-Frame, Z-Frame, X-Frame.
The M-Frames have been discontinued for a very long time and aren't commonly encountered. They are very small and were only made as 7-Shot revolvers in .22 Long. The I-Frames have also been discontinued for quite some time but they do turn up occasionally and basically look like slightly shorter J-Frames. The true J-Frame has been gone since 1999, but they are still quite common, they are also quite difficult to tell apart from their slightly lengthened successor: the Magnum J-Frame. The M, I, J, and Magnum J-Frames are all generally considered to be "small" frames. The I, J, and Magnum J-Frames will also be five-shot guns if chambered for a .38 caliber cartridge (the I-Frames were never chambered for .38 Special, but were made in .38 S&W).
The K-Frame is obviously what your M19 is and is the smaller of the two medium frame sizes. Most K-Frames have six-shot cylinders but the 617 in .22 LR has a 10-shot cylinder. The largest/most powerful cartridge that has ever been chambered in the K-Frame is, AFAIK, .357 Magnum.
The L-Frame is the larger of the two medium frames and is usually found in .357 Magnum though some have also been made in 9mm, .40 S&W, .44 Special, and .44 Magnum. In .357 Magnum they may be found with either 6 or 7-shot cylinders and in all the larger calibers they will have a 5-shot cylinder.
The N-Frame is the large frame and has, at various times, been chambered in 9mm, .38 Super, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, 10mm Auto, .41 Magnum, .44-40, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .45 ACP/.45 AR, .45 Long Colt, and .455 Webley. In any caliber from 10mm up, they will have a six-shot cylinder, 9mm and .38 Supers will have an 8-shot cylinder, .38 Special will have 6-shot cylinders, and .357 Magnums will have either 6 or 8-shot cylinders depending on the model and vintage.
The Z-Frame is the newest size and could be viewed as either a large or extra large frame. The only model made on the Z-Frame to date is the Governor revolver which can fire .45 ACP, .45 Long Colt, or .410 Shotshells.
The X-Frame is the largest and would most definitely be considered an extra large frame. The only two cartridges for which the X-Frame is chambered are .460 S&W Magnum and .500 S&W Magnum both of which have 5-shot cylinders.
The most difficult to tell apart are usually the I/J/Magnum J-Frames and the K/L-Frames. There really isn't any good way to tell the small frames (other than the very petite M-Frame) apart from each other at a casual glance since they're very close in size and often appearance. The K/L-Frames can sometimes be told apart more easily because there are certain features more common to one frame size than the other. For one thing, very few L-Frames have unshrouded ejector rods (the only one I know of is the M619) so any medium frame S&W with that feature is most likely a K-Frame (though this obviously doesn't apply to all K-Frames). Similarly, among models with shrouded ejector rods, full underlugs are more common on L-Frames while K-Frames more commonly had half-lug barrels. This, however, is not a hard and fast rule as there are some L-Frames like the Models 620, 520, and 69 which have half-lug barrels and some K-Frames like the 617 which have full-lug barrels.
Quite honestly, the sheer number of different revolvers that S&W has produced over the years makes visual identification by the untrained eye difficult. In addition to the large number of hand-ejectors that we've discussed, there are also many even older models which were top-breaks or tip-ups. If you're really interested in knowing about all the variations, the best reference is probably a copy of The Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"While technically correct, that distinction is, AFAIK, only used by the S&W factory."
And people who know.
Remember, it wasn't all that long ago that people didn't know what a K frame or a J frame was, either, because those designations were "only used by the S&W factory."
"If you've got a good eye for size, then you can usually tell them apart that way. S&W hand-ejector frame sizes in order from smallest to largest are as follows: M-Frame (long discontinued predates model numbers), I-Frame (discontinued), J-Frame (discontinued), Magnum J-Frame, K-Frame, L-Frame, N-Frame, Z-Frame, X-Frame."
The "Improved" I frame needs to be added to your list and in my view should be thought of as a distinct frame size all its own. It's larger than the I frame, but still smaller than the J frame. More importantly, few of its parts are interchangeable with the older I frame because of the size difference and because it introduced the coil spring.
And people who know.
Remember, it wasn't all that long ago that people didn't know what a K frame or a J frame was, either, because those designations were "only used by the S&W factory."
"If you've got a good eye for size, then you can usually tell them apart that way. S&W hand-ejector frame sizes in order from smallest to largest are as follows: M-Frame (long discontinued predates model numbers), I-Frame (discontinued), J-Frame (discontinued), Magnum J-Frame, K-Frame, L-Frame, N-Frame, Z-Frame, X-Frame."
The "Improved" I frame needs to be added to your list and in my view should be thought of as a distinct frame size all its own. It's larger than the I frame, but still smaller than the J frame. More importantly, few of its parts are interchangeable with the older I frame because of the size difference and because it introduced the coil spring.
carguychris
New member
...also, at the risk of extending the thread hijack, the J frame technically came in three versions. The early version used from 1950 to 1952 had a smaller trigger guard and 1/4"-shorter grip frame- the same dimensions used for the original I frame, although the J frame has always used a coil mainspring, whereas the early I frame used a leaf mainspring like the larger frames did (and still do). Thus, the early I frame can be readily differentiated from the J's by the presence of a leaf spring strain screw near the base of the frontstrap.Mike Irwin said:
The early J frame was only used for the spur-hammer Chief's Special, and collectors refer to this variant as the "Baby Chief" or "short-grip Chief".
In 1953, S&W enlarged the trigger guard and lengthened the grip frame of both the I and J frames, and simultaneously added the coil mainspring to the I frame, thus creating the Improved I frame.
FWIW between 1960 and 1962, all Improved I frame models were replaced with an equivalent J frame model. In 1996, the Magnum J frame replaced the J frame.
Mike Irwin
Staff
THREAD JACK!!!!
"the J frame technically came in three versions."
But for those many parts were interchangeable.
Not true for the I frame v I frame improved.
The I frame improved's frame was also also significantly larger in virtually every dimension; it wasn't just beefed up a little bit...
"the J frame technically came in three versions."
But for those many parts were interchangeable.
Not true for the I frame v I frame improved.
The I frame improved's frame was also also significantly larger in virtually every dimension; it wasn't just beefed up a little bit...
Mike Irwin
Staff
"You can remember all the designations or you can pop open the cylinder and read what frame size the gun is.
If it's a lettered model it's stamped on the frame."
Say what, now?
The frame's letter size isn't stamped in the crane cut. Or at least it wasn't on pre-2000 guns.
The model number is stamped there, but only on guns made after 1957.
If it's a lettered model it's stamped on the frame."
Say what, now?
The frame's letter size isn't stamped in the crane cut. Or at least it wasn't on pre-2000 guns.
The model number is stamped there, but only on guns made after 1957.
Northrider
New member
Thank you all for taking the time to educate me. My next step is to go to Amazon or Barnes and Noble and get the S&W book.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson is a fantastic book, you'll never regret the purchase.
It's been my experience that learning all the different Smith & Wesson Models is simply a hobby that either grows on you or doesn't. If you hang out in this forum daily and read all the different threads that pop up, you will end up learning the lion's share of the model numbers, even if that's not your intention. You'll just soak it up and one day you'll know most of 'em.
replacement stocks/grips
Very difficult to even begin shopping or looking for these if you don't know what size you'll need. Perhaps we can credit those companies that really filled the consumer demand for something (ANYTHING!) better than the OEM wood that Smith & Wesson shipped with these revolvers.
It's been my experience that learning all the different Smith & Wesson Models is simply a hobby that either grows on you or doesn't. If you hang out in this forum daily and read all the different threads that pop up, you will end up learning the lion's share of the model numbers, even if that's not your intention. You'll just soak it up and one day you'll know most of 'em.
I would suggest that the buying public began to learn frame sizes and designations for pretty much one very specific reason:
replacement stocks/grips
Very difficult to even begin shopping or looking for these if you don't know what size you'll need. Perhaps we can credit those companies that really filled the consumer demand for something (ANYTHING!) better than the OEM wood that Smith & Wesson shipped with these revolvers.