My article, "The JFK assassination - Could Oswald have made the shots?"

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Trebor

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Here's my latest Michigan Firearms Examiner article on the JFK assassination.

A look at the JFK assassination at 50 years - Could Oswald have made the shots?

"The assassination of President John F. Kennedy, 50 years ago today, continues to capture the imagination of the public. The details of that day have been researched, written about, and argued over from when the echoes of the shots faded in Dealey plaza to now, a half-century later.

The 50th Anniversary of the shooting is a good time to take a look at one belief seized upon by many conspiracy theorists: The idea that the identified assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald lacked the equipment, and more importantly the skill, to make the fatal shots.

Because practically every element of the assassination, and the investigation, has been disputed by some conspiracy theory or another we will limit the discussion to one topic. The question is this: Could Oswald have fired three shots with a Carcano carbine from the Texas Schoolbook Depository, and hit the President twice, at distances up to 81 meters, in the roughly 5 ¼ to 8 ½ seconds allowed by most estimates."
 

kilimanjaro

New member
Yes, he could have, and, did so. I don't think he was the marksman we believe, though, just got one lucky head shot.

I've read where he was probably trying to kill Governor Connolly, he had a grudge against him.

The first shot started the clock, so he had 3 seconds apiece for the next two rounds.
 

jmr40

New member
I have always felt it was possible. I was visiting family in TX this summer and went to the museum in Dallas. The first shot was at around 40-50 yards. While he was in a moving car, the shot was almost straight away from behind at only a slight angle in a car that was being driven very slowly. The 2nd shot that hit was at under 100 yards and at an angle even closer to straight away. There was a 3rd shot that missed altogether.

The actual window where they think the shot was fired from is not accessable but the one next to it is. Looking from the window I honestly felt that most any experienced hunter could probably make that shot at least 50% of the time. Oswald, or someone, hit 67% of their shots, so I don't think it was impossible at all. Maybe a little luck on top of some skill.

I've fired 3 shots from a 308 bolt action rifle in under 2 seconds. Of course I wasn't aiming, just running against the clock to see how fast I could do it. I've put 3 shots inside a paper plate @ 50 yards in just a hair over 4 seconds. So yes, 3 aimed shots in 5-8 seconds is certainly possible with a bolt rifle.
 

4runnerman

New member
I also think it was possible. Was it ever proven that he lacked the skills to do it?.
Time wise he could have done it,skill wise,,,We will never know for sure.
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
I've stood on the 6th floor and looked down at the mark on the pavement. It was not a hard shot, in my opinion.

The fact that it's been duplicated on more than one occasion confirms that it is possible.

Your article is well written and researched--good work.
 

TXAZ

New member
Scoped rifle, Marine Marksman, yes, Oswald and Charles Whitman (University of Texas tower sniper) were both well trained and could have, and IMHO did.
I'd expect most US snipers could also.
 

wayneinFL

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WayneinFL is WayneinTX this week. I'm actually working a few blocks from Dealey Plaza. I hadn't thought about it until I saw all the stuff they set up for tge event, abd someone told me it was the 50th anniversary of the assassination.

If I get some free time tomorrow, I'll take a walk around and see what I can see. To those of you who have actually been there, is any of this marked?
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
To those of you who have actually been there, is any of this marked?
The point of the headshot is marked on the pavement and the 6th floor of the Book Depository is a museum. You can go up there and look out the window next to the one where Oswald set up.

You'll have to go through a metal detector to get into the museum. Plan ahead.

Beware of the nuts. There are plenty of them down there, all selling their particular brand of conspiracy and often incoherently.
Col. Craig Roberts, a Marine Corps sniper, says in his book Kill Zone: A Sniper Looks at Dealey Plaza that Oswald couldn't make the shots.
That's very disappointing. I have read some of Roberts' material and previously thought highly of him.
 

SVO

New member
I believe that the three shots were fired in 9 seconds. Being a Marine Rifleman, I think he was the one and only shooter.
 
Let's stick to the point of the article under discussion. Unrelated posts about Zapruder, Kruschev, or Kevin Costner are off topic, and some have already been deleted.
 

jmr40

New member
To those of you who have actually been there, is any of this marked?

There is a large white "X" painted on the pavement at both points where Kennedy was hit. You can easily see them from the windows of the building. There are trees growing alongside the road that partially obstruct the view, but if they were there 50 years ago they were certainly much smaller. Don't think they were there at all in 1963.
 

Brit

New member
The rifle worked, when you press the trigger, on a rifle, pointed at a target 50 yards away? The chance of hitting anything is based on the pure mechanics of a projectile sent down range. Skill? Luck?

It is certainly possible.
 

leadcounsel

Moderator
Science, ballistics, trajectory, and common sense proves that Oswald didn't act alone, and he probably wasn't even the shooter.

Given the totality of what I've read on the topic and all of the official secrecy behind the assassination and the investigation (sloppy, rushed, sealed, secret autopsy, destroyed autopsy film, video from many cameras was ruined or scenes edited out, etc.). I've concluded that Oswald definitely did not act alone, and I'm not even certain he was the shooter. I think he was set up either as a decoy to take the fall, or as one of several trigger men. I think that there were other shooters, perhaps in/on other buildings or the grassy knoll or even a ND from the CIA agent in the car behind the President.

Two shooter theory is supported by the rapid succession of shot #2 and #3, which would be quite difficult operating a bolt action. I've also read that Oswald was either a lefty, or left eye dominant. Either way, at under 100 yards on a moving target, we can all agree that open sites would be easier than a scope, particularly on a bolt gun, to make those quick succession shots.

Ground shooter theory is supported by where the shots were heard coming from, and also by the fact that many witnesses smelled gun powder at the ground level, and saw a shooter in the grassy knoll.

One theory is that there was a gunman on a rooftop directly behind the President.

I watched "The Smoking Gun" recently. I was immediately dismissive at the low probability that a CIA negligent discharge would happen, AND the randomness of a headshot.

BUT...The show presented itself and the evidence in such a way that it is the most probable theory I've ever heard. It's based in science and eye-witness accounts. It should be noted this theory was presented decades ago and never gained traction. It's been in magazines and book(s). It's actually hard to refute this theory.

1. Ballistics and trajectory. The angle of a 6th floor shot is wrong and more consistent with a ground level shot, from directly behind. The first hit went at an angle down through his neck, into Connolly's ribs and hand and leg. Downward angle. The headshot was level and blew off the TOP of his head. And the first FMJ bullet found was barely damaged, yet the head shot bullet was fragmented unlike a solid FMJ. This suggests strongly that it was a different shooter, different angle, and different caliber/bullet/rifle.

I know that bullets behave weirdly at times, but this is too much evidence to believe these were the same bullet, rifle, and angle.

2. The investigation was by all accounts horrible and rushed. While I don't know whether the CIA was involved in an assassination, I have no doubt that there was a high level coverup. Tons of very important evidence was ignored, dismissed, or not pursued. Why? And it was convenient that Oswald was allowed to be killed by another highly suspect person, shortly after the fact. They were definitely protecting someone or some organization(s).

I don't have any horse in this race, more just curious about what I think to be other flaws in the theory that Oswald acted alone. This suggests that he was a patsy. The whole thing raises more questions than answers.

It's based on Oswald and the rifle and the plan. These seem to be some of the weakest links factually (not theoretically) in the single shooter theory.

A. Apparently Oswald was a good or fair marksman. But I believe that he would have trained on weapons the Marine Corp were using in 1956 and 1959. I'm thinking he likely would have tested with the M1 Garand or M1 Carbine, no? I've seen his score card, and he scored with these weapons. Perhaps he would have had exposure to the previous bolt US military bolt guns, too? The 1903 or the Eddystone. He was also possibly left handed or left-eye dominant. A bolt action might not be the best choice for him. Final note, his Corp qualification would have been on stationary targets with a semi-auto rifle with much better open sights. Conversely, he had an apparently amazing day on 22 November 1963 with a substandard bolt action rifle (probably the worst rifle of WWII), hitting a moving target with the added stress that cannot be replicated in the Marine Corps training. Also we know that the last time he was definitely 'tested' with a rifle was in 1959. Perhaps he trained or shot between '59 and '63. Perhaps not. He spent a lot of time traveling around the world between the US and Russia in that time. Had a wife and child. I've never read that he spent a lot of time at the rifle ranges or shooting matches.

B. He purchased the Caranco in March '63, just 8 months prior to the assassination and witnesses said he barely shot it. Why would he not get and use a better rifle, or one with which he is more familiar? Why a 35+ year old bolt action for a lefty? Why not a semi-auto M1 Garand or Carbine with many immediate followups? A scope on a moving target 100 yards away is actually a hinderance and open sights on an M1 would be much easier to score multiple hits; fish in a barrel 8 times. Makes zero sense he would pick the rifle he did, especially as a lefty who has qualified expert on the M1 platform.

C. There are real flaws from picking the location, angle of approach vs. escape of the motorcade, etc. that any trained Marine would seem to plan differently. How did he know the President would be exposed? Not shielded by a car roof or CIA agents on the bumpers? Why not shoot him as he's approaching and getting closer, versus driving away (giving you harder shots and more limited time)? A clear frontal shot coming toward you is much easier than a partially concealed shot driving away...

D. It also just seems that the plan for a single shooter leaves a lot to chance and error. Different route, convertible car, speed, direction, misses, etc. It seems much more tactical and strategic to have multiple shooters to get the job done.

E. Probability and likelihood of making the shots. I know that the shots *can* be made and have been replicated. But I also know that many tests presented failures to make these shots. The 1967 CBS tests replicated the range, speed, etc. and had 11 experienced shooters. Whether it is 6 seconds or 9 seconds would make a difference. However, in the test of 6 seconds, most shooters could not replicate it. There were a lot of problems with the rifle. And there was no stress of the assassination, the noise, etc. involved. So in the tests, out of many trained shooters, the successful hit rates were very low. So if you're Oswald going into this, aren't you going to give yourself the best odds of success? Sure, these are POSSIBLE to make, but admittedly far from certain. It just cannot believe that someone would make such a wildly low probability attempt with a rifle that was outdated AT THE TIME...

And regarding the premise that the rifle was a sound, serviceable rifle. I dispute that. I've read that the sights and scope were not dialed in properly. And the Carcano has a poor reputation in general. Also note that in the 1967 CBS test, they had to scrap nearly 1/2 of their trials because of mechanical problems with their test rifle(s). So, hardly a Mauser or K31. By the way, why not, again, use a better quality rifle or one he's accustomed to if he's going to pull off an assassination?
The tests showed that, at 100 yards, the test shots landed within a 3 to 5 inch circle, about 2 ½ to 5 inches high.
Rifle shot 3-5 inches high, and was a 3-5 inch MOA!!! Hardly a good rifle. Imagine trying to hit a moving target with that blunderbuss! No way! Makes zero sense to be trained on ABC and then go use XYZ in the Super Bowl of shooting matches... And if that's the case, for him to have hit Kennedy's neck on the first shot, he would have to have been aiming for the trunk of the moving car. Nope. I don't buy it.

A note on the recreations. Some shooters are able to recreate, others not so much. But I don't think any recreation of just the logistics is a fair comparison. There must be some added level of stress involved to make it fair. For instance, take the example of a field goal kicker in football. Pro kickers can hit 70 yard field goals in practice and routinely do. But the record is, I think, around 63 yards during live play. Why? Stress, pressure, and quickness. It does make a difference. None of these tests can replicate it. They could implement some serious physical exertion to get the heart rate up, sweat dripping down the forehead into the eyes, sweaty palms and shaky arms, heart beating 80 beats per minute... I'm not aware of any replication that has incorporated this into the test. I'd like to see that done.

And then he had no plan after-the-fact. He was found just loitering around the area. No bags packed. No escape plan. No airline ticket anywhere. He went home and then was found walking in plain view down his street by a cop. Then he just went and sat in a movie theater without even buying a ticket to lay low...

It should be noted that a lot of witnesses said they thought the shots came from the grassy knoll, and up to 11 shots fired. And others said they smelled gun powder at the ground level. Probably unlikely to smell it if the only shots were from the 6th floor.

Anyway, I've always thought that the technical aspects were some of the weakest points of the explanation of who and what was used and where the shots were fired from.

If not the M1 line, what would have been the better rifle options to ensure higher degree of success in 1963?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F....sination_rifle

http://22november1963.org.uk/lee-har...n-sharpshooter

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5725882

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcano

The Commission and investigators failed to get dozens of witnesses on record and didn't even bother calling many key witnesses to testify. Why?

There are tons of videos showing all parts of the parade, yet just a couple poor videos of the actual assassination, and those were tampered with. Where are all of the official videos of the route. A big mystery as to what happened to all of those videos of the entire route except the last turn onto the Daly Plaza.

And regarding pictures, I am not even convinced that is a legit picture of Oswald holding the rifle in the famous 'backyard' picture. Look at the shadowing. His shadow is casting back and hard left. Yet the other shadows of items are back and hard right. This is a 1963 photoshop if you ask me. A total con on the American people.

Doubt many people here are going to walk in to a high stress situation, with a racing heart rate and sweaty palms, with a 3-5 MOA bolt gun, and score 2 out of 3 hits, including a neck and headshot, on a moving target from 100-150 yards. Can it be done? Sure. But it is so improbable that it is insulting in my opinion that the American people were fed this big lie. The whole thing just stinks like a huge conspiracy coverup. Why is it so secret? Very little of the official Warren Commission report is believable, plausible, or even reasonable in my view. It was a rushed job given to a relatively accepting and uniformed public in the 1960s. It was on par with what you might expect from maybe middleschool kids today. By todays standards of ballistics, tactics, medical science, and investigative measures and interviews, it's a joke. And the conclusions are a total farce that just don't add up or make sense.
 
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manta49

New member
I think he could have made the shots, and did. I have seen programs reconstructing the shooting and they were able to make the shots. Some Things are what they are one person two shots that hit the president. He could have took the same shoots on another day and misted lucky shots for him unlucky for the president.
 
Despite a lot of what has been said about it over the years, the Carcano rifle is not a hideous mistake of an unusable, unworkable rifle, and that the bolt simply couldn't be operated quickly enough to make the shots in the time frame allotted.

I've also seen many claims over the years that the average Carcano's groups could only be measured in feet, not inches.

To my best estimation, those claims are routinely made by people whose only practical experience with a Carcano comes from the pages of a book.

It's not the smoothest operating rifle on the face of the earth, but it is not what so many have tried to make it over the years.

It's not the most accurate rifle on the face of the earth, but it is FAR more accurate than some of the claims I've seen over the years.

My own experience was a variety of Carcanos back up those observations. I've turned in sub-2" groups at 100 yards with more than one Carcano over the years.

This is an interesting article from GunsAmerica. They found a Carcano close in serial number range to Oswald's, one with the same scope and mount. It's telling what their own testing showed.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/lee-harvey-oswalds-carcano-rifle-shooting-it-today/

There have been a number of recreations of the shooting parameters over the years to see if an average to more than average shooter (Oswald fell in that range) could have made the shots that killed Kennedy, and a number of them have shown that yes, it is more than possible.
 
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vito

New member
During my military years I was just an unremarkable marksman (being in the medical area my shooting skills were not the most critical for my job performance), but when I visited the 6th floor museum in Dallas and looked down at where the shots took place I had little doubt that I could have likely made those shots. The distance and angle were much less than I had previously thought from seeing pictures and film of the area.

Just for information, in conjunction with the 50th anniversary events, the city of Dallas has removed the painted "X"'s on the ground. When I visited a number of years ago the spots were very clearly marked. Of note as well is the sharpness of the turn of the road, requiring the vehicle to slow down to a walking pace, making it much easier for Oswald to have made the shots.
 

wogpotter

New member
"Google Earth" is your friend.
To see from the 6th floor window go to "The sixth floor museum, Dallas" & then use either "Google Earth's" own synthetic cartoon world or the better "Street view" feature to see the POV of someone in the position of the shooter.
The museum also has a website with a live webcam view so you can get a feel for the view of a moving car in the street.

If you look closely you can see the "X" mark in the street (pretty much dead center of the image) where the fatal head-shot was surveyed to have happened.

8es2.jpg


As for could he have done it? Aw heck yes.

80~94 yards sitting, kneeling, or rice paddy squat ( we don't know which, but he had some marine training & had built a rest of cartons full of books), supported with plenty of time to set up the first shot, the 8 1/2 sec clock starts ticking at the sound of the first shot & stops at the sound of the third. The view of a car from that perspective is HUGE, you're looking down at quite a sharp angle for the first 2 rounds so to duplicate it you need to fire 3 shots in 8 1/2 seconds sitting, supported into a 8X 8 FOOT target with one round missing completely.
 
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DaleA

New member
IMhO a very interesting discussion of the gun, the ammunition, the shooting angles and in general the mechanics of the event can be found in the fictional book "The Third Bullet" by one of my favorite authors Stephen Hunter.

He makes a similar point to Mike Irwin's about the Carcano not being the worst rifle in the world and gives a rational for why the Italian Army chose it.
 
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