Muzzleloader Safety

[Pahoo]

Folks, understand that I am a hunter safety instructor and teach Muzzleloading during our field work. The age range is 12 to adults and some are in their 60's. They are all getting the same information. I have bucked heads with other instructors and the sate, on the issues listed below. I certainly would appreciate your responses. I'm asking what you would teach.

• In the loading process; "Bouncing or Pounding" the ramrod on a patched round ball.
• After firing; Blow down the muzzle and observe the smoke venting out the nipple.
• How would you present and address the problem of a "HangFire"??

 

[CraigC]

In my research, which included Sam Fadala's fine work for the Lyman manual, bouncing or pounding is not the proper method to seat the ball. It should be one smooth, fluid action. Both for safety and to prevent deforming the ball.

It is also recommended that you do not remove the fired cap until you're reloaded and are ready to recap. That if the barrel remains sealed at the breech end, it will be less likely to supply enough oxygen to any remaining embers that could possibly set off the new powder charge. Blowing down the bore would have the opposite effect and I don't know what they're trying to accomplish. Maybe the watched Quigley too many times and think that black powder cartridge etiquette applies directly to muzzleloader shooting.

Address a hangfire by waiting for a short period to see if it might still ignite, with it still pointed downrange, then recap and try again. If after several tries it still does not ignite, remove the nippple and drop some FFFg or FFFFg into the nipple port. Only then would you get out your screw to remove the ball and powder charge.

 

[Mike Irwin]

The only reason I "bounce" the ramrod on a loaded ball is to ensure that yes, I have everything nice and tightly compacted from the initial load.

If you get a good solid bounce, you have good loading compression.

Bouncing once isn't the same as pounding or bouncing designed to finish seating the ball.

If I don't get a good bounce, I attempt to finish compressing the charge using steady pressure.

If that doesn't work and I still can't get a good bounce, the ball extractor comes out of the possibles bag.


As for keeping the cap seated during the reload process, that's not an option for me. I shoot a flintlock.


Blowing down the muzzle? Never heard that one before.


Please tell me, though, that you're teaching these kids to NEVER load directly from a horn or flask - ALWAYS use a measure, and always recap the horn or flask before pouring the charge down the barrel.

Years ago I came across a guy shooting a flintlock from a bench. He had a 1 pound can of black powder on the bench beside him with a pouring spout on it.... open.

He and I had a little chat about that, and he just didn't realize what he could do to himself.

When I'm shooting from a bench I don't even keep the powder supply on the bench top. I put it on a table (or the ground) behind me.

 

[Pahoo]

Please tell me, though, that you're teaching these kids to NEVER load directly from a horn or flask - ALWAYS use a measure, and always recap the horn or flask before pouring the charge down the barrel

.
Mike,
That is correct and it's one of the test question. The flasks we use, have valves on them. We mostly teach percussion unless someone asks for more info on "Rock Crushers". Remember that this is just an introduction for most of these folks. Like to generate lots of interest so they are not afraid. Strongly encourage the parents to take a shot as well. Teach in-line and my favorite.... Traditionals

 

[Mike Irwin]

I understand what it is and what you're trying to do.

I just don't understand the concept of blowing down the muzzle...

 

[Chris_B]

I am no firearms expert. But I would no sooner blow down the muzzle of any firearm than I would tap dance on the edge of the Grand Canyon, or hand-feed Big Macs to grizzlies

Firstly- my club would ban me, for holding the pistol up straight close to my head

Secondly- my head does not come that near to the business end of any firearm. This is common sense.

Thirdly- the range officer would chew me out for holding the pistol straight up to blow on it, in it, next to it, or around it. Holding the pistol in that fashion is a no-no there

A thought on BP pistol loading stands. Seems a good way to blow your head off to me. I remove the cylinder, load powder and a wad, install the cylinder, ram all the balls home with the rammer, then cap. This seems the safest way to my thinking.

 

[CraigC]

I am no firearms expert. But I would no sooner blow down the muzzle of any firearm than I would tap dance on the edge of the Grand Canyon, or hand-feed Big Macs to grizzlies

I question the practice too but only the practicality or purpose of it. Having such hard and fast rules about muzzles makes it extremely difficult to shoot blackpowder guns seeing as how they most all load from the business end. You must never check the bore of a used gun before you buy it. Or clean them. Or check to see that they are clean after cleaning them. I'm glad I no longer have to deal with such strict private shooting ranges.

Your loading procedure might work fine for a Remington or Ruger Old Army but it would be more than a little hassle with a Colt or replica. I've never heard of anyone shooting themselves in the face because they were using a loading stand.

 

[mykeal]

I also teach the muzzleloader/black powder section of our hunter safety course.

We do not teach 'bouncing' or 'pounding' the ramrod. Smooth, steady pressure, then check seated by the depth of the rod which has been previously marked when a successfully seated load was accomplished.

Never, ever blow down the muzzle. Never, ever point the gun at your head (do we really NEED to say that?).

Hang fire: with the muzzle pointed downrange, recap and attempt to fire. Try at least two more times. Then remove the nipple, introduce ffffg powder, recap and try. If no ffffg powder is available, intorduce water or bp solvent and use a screw jag to remove the ball.

Do people really put their mouths over the muzzle and blow into the bore?

 

[Chris_B]

I question the practice too but only the practicality or purpose of it. Having such hard and fast rules about muzzles makes it extremely difficult to shoot blackpowder guns seeing as how they most all load from the business end.

Well, I can tell you that I still don't see how having the muzzle so close to your head is needed. Having the muzzle at arm's length (roughly) is a far cry from having your head so close to it that you can blow down the barrel, agreed? The point is that getting your head so close seems rather dangerous, and the risk is in the interest of what? Safety? You are trading one risk for another with that practice in my opinion

You must never check the bore of a used gun before you buy it. Or clean them. Or check to see that they are clean after cleaning them.

Now, of *course* you need to look down the muzzle to clean a weapon for examle. But we aren't talking about cleaning here, correct ? I didn't feel the need to give a lawyer's reply and make a footnote about cleaning...maybe I should have made the disclaimer, but then again I'm not trying to win an argument here- you and I both know that blowing down a muzzle of a potentially loaded firearm is not conducive to additional birthday celebrations. I don't need to argue that fact

Your loading procedure might work fine for a Remington or Ruger Old Army but it would be more than a little hassle with a Colt or replica.

I do not have anything but an 1862 Colt NY Met Police replica. Taking out the cylinder is quick and easy with a small block of wood. No injuns shooting back at me Plus, speed or minor convenience is not something I place importance on, over safety. I'm not going to cut corners on "hassles", especially when BP is already a huge "hassle"

I've never heard of anyone shooting themselves in the face because they were using a loading stand.

Just because you have never heard of anyone shooting themselves with a loading stand is not a good enough argument for my taste Surely you can see the potential in having a pistol facing up at you from bench height as you lean over it. In my opinion, if I wouldn't load a brand new semi-automatic pistol holding it in that position, how is loading a BP pistol that way "safe"? They'll both shoot you dead. So what's so special about a BP pistol that says that having the muzzle pointing straight up as you lean over it a safe way to go about things?

Many people use the stands, and I'm sure most of them can prove their superior knowledge of firearms to me and everyone else in a heartbeat. That still doesn't prove to me that loading in that fashion is "safe". What's more important to me...saving 30 seconds of time, or saving some wear on some case hardened steel...or making sure my damn fool head is out of the path of a bullet? This is no contest

 

[Pahoo]

Fellows, I should clarify that we only teach Muzzleloading rifles at this course. I'm getting some very good information from you guys and know that I am not playing any games. Yes, there are folks out there that blow down the muzzle of a muzzleloading rifle, after shooting, to make sure the vent is clear. I truly appreciate your experience and input.
Mike, Thanks for the tip on capping the flasks. I do it but never gave it any thought.

 

[Chris_B]

I'm not sure anyone has accused you of playing games. I'm glad you're placing such an emphasis on safety

 

[mykeal]

Surely you can see the potential in having a pistol facing up at you from bench height as you lean over it.

Chris -

Let's use a little common sense here.

I often (not always) use a loading stand with both my Colt and Remington revolvers. I do not lean over the muzzle of the gun while loading it in the stand, any more than I lean over the muzzle of my rifles and shotguns when I load them.

We teach our students to point the muzzle away from themselves and others at all times, including during loading. This includes revolvers and using loading stands.

Why would you assume that because one uses a loading stand that one automatically ignores basic gun safety and leans over the muzzle? Surely you can see that we don't lose all capability for rational thought just because we own such a device.

 

[sundance44s]

As far as bounceing the ram rod while loading a front stuffer , I don`t do it nor do I teach it to newbies , its not needed for one thing , and if its done there could be some damage done to the front of the ball ..And if its done to a Flint lock it will pack the powder to the point it probally won`t go off without picking out the vent hole to gain a little air space for the primming pan flash to enter .

Dealing with a rifle that is loaded and it failed to fire , first off recap or reprime in the cast of a flintlock .. then fire again , if it still fails to discharge , then pull out the nipple pick or vent hole pick and give it a push into the flash hole to clear any trash that could be clogging it . If it still fails to discharge , I remove the nipple on a cap lock and pour a little powder in the nipple hole and use the nipple pick to push it in , then replace nipple and blow the excess powder from around the nipple and recap this uasually works ..if not I pour a little water down the barrel and get out the ball extractor worm ....IN the case its a flint lock same thing only push some powder into the flash hole with the hole pick .

Blowing down the barrel before reloading ...I never do that , if there`s smoke rolling out of the nipple and muzzle , I can wait untill it stops before reloading .I never want the business end of any gun pointed at me head . I know its empty But just look at how many people have been killed by empty guns .

 

[Mike Irwin]

"And if its done to a Flint lock it will pack the powder to the point it probally won`t go off without picking out the vent hole to gain a little air space for the primming pan flash to enter."

That's a problem I can honestly say that I never had.

In fact, when I lost the pick I carried in my possibles bag, I didn't bother to replace it.

As for damage to the front of the ball (or conical), damage to the front actually has little effect on the flight of the projectile.

Damage the butt end, though, and things go to hell quickly.

Neat demonstration...

Cut a nice gouge in the skirt of a conical and see what happens to your aiming point.

 

[Steve499]

Portions of ones body will necessarily be in line with the bore of a muzzle loading firearm during the loading process. One must emphasize the necessity of keeping those portions limited to those you could stand to lose. The normal firearms safety rules for breech loaders allow for no latitude in that area so some concessions have to be made if the piece is ever going to be actually fired.

Since this is more of a familiarization, I'd recommend instructing students to run a wet patch, followed by a dry patch down the bore between every shot. That eliminates any potential danger from embers. I have one rifle which, if you leave the hammer down on the fired cap during loading, compresses air ahead of the powder and doesn't allow the new charge to get close enough to the nipple to be ignited by the new cap. It will misfire every time I do that.

As far as blowing down the barrel goes, the humidity in ones breath helps soften the powder fouling as well as showing the nipple is clear of obstructions. I have several years experience as a firearms instructor and I would never instruct anyone to do it or allow the practice on my range. I do think, however, that the practice has been carried out for years without serious mishap since the only time it's effective is right after the shot has been fired and before any steps toward reloading have been taken. At that point, I see little difference between blowing down the bore of a single shot muzzle loader and looking down the bore of a muzzle loader which has a bore light dropped to the breech. Anyone here ever done that? I carry a bore light to every gun show and estate auction. I see that there's no cap, then I drop the light down and look. How else can you do it?

 

[CraigC]

How else can you do it?

A little AAA keychain Maglite is perfect for just such a task. I drop it down the bore every time I clean to make sure it's nice and shiny.

 

[jhenry]

Interesting post and questions. Here is some accumulated information I have learrned from quite a few years of flintlock match shooting. I even won a few

As for bouncing the loading rod, this is a completely uneeded action and detrimental to accuracy. Have the students load a clean rifle so as to not hang up on any fouling ring and mark the rod at the muzzle. When loading, if the mark is flush with the muzzle then yer there so to speak, no air space. There is no advantage to packing the powder, there is however a great advantage to having even consistant pressure when running your ball down. A general rule of thumb is 40 pounds. To get the feel for this what you do is to load on a bathroom scale and you will soon get the hang of how much pressure to put on the rod at the end of it's travel. In fact there used to be, and may still be, a gizmo for the handle end of the loading rod which more or less worked like a torque wrench to let you know how much pressure you have applied. You will also deform the ball by bouncing the rod. It is quite true that base damage is more harmful to fine accuracy than damage to the nose area, but detrimental is detrimental.

As for barrel blowing, well, I would not teach this because you certainly want to teach folks good muzzle discipline. That being said, this is a pretty common technique. It is now outlawed on NMLRA ranges and will get you kicked off the line at Friendship. The reason folks have done this for as long as there have been longrifles is that your breath has a consistant moisture content and temperature. Blowing down the barrel gives the fouling a consistant texture for the between shot cleaning. You all do wipe between shots right? Very much needed for fine accuracy. If you notice, the fouling can be hard, wet, or rather fluffy depending on the weather conditions. It's all the same with a good warm wet breath down the barrel. Consistancy is the name of the accuracy game. If a person is not a complete idiot there really is no danger. These things only go bang once before reloading. Plus, chicks dig a guy with a nice black powder ring around the lips.

As for the dreaded hangfire. Wait, and keep it pointed downrange. After half a minute or so reprime and try again. Stll no go, then check for powder. It is real easy to run a dry ball. If the mark on the loading rod is below the muzzle you have joined the club of the experienced and need to pull the ball. If this is not the case then work some 4f into the vent or nipple area and try again. this will usually do it.

Pulling a ball should be part of the class. An experience all by itself, but not very hard once you learn a few tricks.

By the way, I have not used a vent pick in over 25 years for any reason other than to push 4f into a vent. They are useless tools.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"detrimental to accuracy"

So you mean my 75 yard cloverleaf groups would actually turn into a 1-hole group if I didn't bounce the rod on the ball?

I'm going to have to give that a try.

 

[Raider2000]

OK, I've been looking at this thread for some time & I'm going to put my 2 cents worth in..

HEAD & MUZZLE should NEVER be associated with each other for NO reason PERIOD.
If you want to be sure that everything is clear, get one of those CO2 unloaders & use that but as 100% of the manuals state, "point the muzzle of the weapon away from the body & extremities when loading."
you should only have one of your hands in the line of fire while loading the weapon & then it should only be around the ram rod "or on the loading lever as with C&B revolvers."

While loading the act of tamping the rod over the seated projectile is antiquated & unnecessary, have the rod seat the load firmly & once a good accurate load has been made, mark the rod at the muzzle end once seated against the projectile & load so as to be an indicator that you in fact have a fully loaded weapon to the level that you already determined.

Muzzleloaders can be safe & fun if you use common sense & follow some safe practices & work up your loadings for the best accuracy that your particular weapon is capable of but mistreated it can be a very nasty beast with DIRE consequences.

 

[jhenry]

Well Mike, maybe you are a very consistant ball bouncer.