Murder Rates Up ... Blame Guns

[Musketeer]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,239244,00.html

NEW YORK — After many years of decline, the number of murders climbed this year in New York and many other major U.S. cities, reaching their highest levels in a decade in some places.

Among the reasons given: gangs, the easy availability of illegal guns, a disturbing tendency among young people to pull guns when they do not get the respect they demand, and, in Houston at least, an influx of Hurricane Katrina evacuees.

...

Browne blamed the rise in part on the availability of guns, particularly weapons from out of state. The city this year sued dozens of out-of-state gun shops that it says are responsible for many of the illegal weapons on the streets of New York.

...

Andrew Karmen, a criminologist at John Jay College in New York, said that while there are various theories for the drop in murders in New York and other cities in the 1990s, no one knows for sure why it happened. And if they are going up again, no one knows the reason for that, either, he said.

He noted that police departments tend to take credit when the murder rate goes down. "When crime goes up it will be interesting to see whether they will accept responsibility," Karmen said.

I like how they tie ILLEGAL GUNS to the INCREASE IN MURDER. Excuse me but are the laws on handguns suddenly less restrictive in places like NY and Chicago than they were in the 90s? I believe they are even tougher.

Weren't those "Illegal Guns" available out of state in the 90s? Certainly! Why are they responsible for the murder increase in 2006 then but not for one in 1996?

The New Orleans numbers are interesting. They have had only 75% of the murders of a year ago but the city is still only 50% populated and was mostly empty for several months. I think that equates to an increase. Didn't they go and confiscate guns... right, that was only from law abiding citizens to whom they still have not returned them.

Get ready for the Libs to use increased murders as the rallying cry for more Gun Control.

 

[Eghad]

Among the reasons given

the spike is mostly the result of an unusually large number of "reclassified homicides," or those involving victims who were shot or stabbed years ago but did not die until this year. Thirty-five such deaths have been added to this

Police Department spokesman Paul Browne noted that this year's total is only slightly higher than last year's 539 homicides — the city's lowest death toll in more than 40 years.

Browne blamed the rise in part on the availability of guns

doublespeak at its finest.

 

[Redworm]

Doublespeak indeed. It's always about those evil guns, even when the gun happens to be a knife.

I haven't read much about Karmen but an ex of mine is studying forensic psych under him at JJ. I like that quote at the end and I think he once pointed out that "Politicians use statistics like drunks use lamp posts: for support, not illumination."


However I do have to wonder what responsibility we, as law abiding gun owners, have in stopping the flow of illegal guns. Yeah we can bitch and moan about the laws that come from this stuff and point out the inaccuracy and misinterpretation of many statistics but the bottom line is that thugs are getting illegal guns and those guns are coming from somewhere.

How do they get guns? Buy them on the black market or steal them. The ones on the black market are either straw purchases or also stolen. Where are they being stolen from? I highly doubt many of these are being stolen from the manufacturers because I certainly wouldn't buy anything from Springfield Armory or anyone else if they couldn't even control their own supply line.

What about the shops? Should they be doing more to prevent theft? What about homeowners? I certainly wouldn't hold someone responsible if their car got stolen by a thug and used to run someone over but since firearms are far easier and more effective at killing people shouldn't homeowners consider themselves a bit more responsible for where their guns end up? If I leave my truck unlocked and someone steals it then I can be pissed off but I can't ignore my own culpability. If I leave my gun on the kitchen counter and it's stolen then....well, I dunno. It's pretty stupid to do either one but should I be held responsible for securing possessions of mine that are designed to kill?


Like I said, we can sit here and complain about all the irrational gun control laws being passed but would it not be far more effective for us to help stop illegal guns from getting into the hands of thugs in the first place?

 

[Musketeer]

Redworm does make a valid point. The guns used to commit these crimes are for the most part not legally owned. Given what NYC has seen it is clear the guns are the result of straw purchases in other states and then brougth to NYC by the truckload and sold for a major mark up. The question is what do we do?

I say we prosecute. This is not that hard. You have people buying multiple guns legally in a state like VA. Those guns then show up in crimes commited in NYC. How much investigating willt his really take?

The form says who bought the gun. If you see one person has bought 12 guns that have all shown up in NYC tied to crimes it might be worth talking to the buyer of these firearms and finding out what they did with them. If they transported them to NYC then they broke the law. If they bought them for someone else they also broke the law. How about we simply enforce the existing law.

My next proposal will tick off a couple people here but I really think its time has come. If we do not enact it ourselves we will see legislation that will truly infringe our rights in its place. I think we need a mandatory background check for even private party sales with a record of the transaction to be retained by the seller for up to 7 years. Any person should be able to call and have an instacheck done. Give that check a tracking #, attach it to a slip of paper saying gun 123FDG was sold to Mr. X on such and such a date with a copy of his supplied ID. If we can hold onto our tax records for that long then we can hold onto a couple slips of paper from gun sales.

The check needs to be avaialble FREE OF CHARGE. Any charge would be considerred the infringement of that right since some peopel may not be able to pay this charge. I do not see a check though, in and of itself, as infringement. What is more I would be 95% of the nation feels the same way (that % will not apply to these forums though). The system would not be perfect and still subject to abuse but it will be far more effective than what we have now and provide a way of tracking these guns back tot he person who actually broke the law. Then you can actually prosecute those who broke the law and not simply punish everyone.

 

[boofus]

My next proposal will tick off a couple people here but I really think its time has come. If we do not enact it ourselves we will see legislation that will truly infringe our rights in its place. I think we need a mandatory background check for even private party sales with a record of the transaction to be retained by the seller for up to 7 years. Any person should be able to call and have an instacheck done. Give that check a tracking #, attach it to a slip of paper saying gun 123FDG was sold to Mr. X on such and such a date with a copy of his supplied ID. If we can hold onto our tax records for that long then we can hold onto a couple slips of paper from gun sales.

A far better idea is to pass laws in other states that makes it legal to shoot on sight people from NY, MA, CA, MD and all the other places that claim to have an influx of straw purchased guns.

Once no New Yorker dares step foot in Virginia or Pennsylvania or Georgia the NY straw purchasers will naturally avoid the state too. Problem solved, no more gun traffickers going to those states, and no one loses any rights except the ones that deserve it.

And the best part is those liberal big city mayors will stay in their little fiefdoms out of fear instead of venturing out to pollute uncontaminated America.

Why should those of us in other states that avoid NYC and its related scum for a reason be made to suffer for their inability to deal with their own citizens and illegals?

 

[Musketeer]

A far better idea is to pass laws in other states that makes it legal to shoot on sight people from NY, MA, CA, MD and all the other places that claim to have an influx of straw purchased guns.

...

Why should those of us in other states that avoid NYC and its related scum for a reason be made to suffer for their inability to deal with their own citizens and illegals?

First, I live in NY and while I certainly am at odds with many in this state I consider even the proposition in jest that you be allowed to shoot anyone fro a state you don't like to be highly offensive. It is also exactly the type of garbage those from the anti movement love to troll our forums for. You are their best friend.

Second, the straw purchase problem exists in VA for VA residents too. How do you think the criminals in your own state get their guns? They get someone with a clean record to go buy them and then purchase them in private party sales. While the private party sale is legal in VA without a background check felons buying guns is NOT. That though is easily avoided through the private party sale. VA and other states have this problem but none on our side care to mention it. Straw purchases are a big issue in NY and NYC because the private purchase without a permit as well as registration does not exist. There is no legal system where a lawful owner of a handgun can transfer it to a felon. Both must have permits and there is a registration issue. What is more, that New Yorker you blame for dirving down to VA and buying a handgun from a store illegally is NOT a New Yorker. It is a Virgininan who buys the gun with the intent of selling it to someone in NY either while in VA or in NY. Handguns could not be purchased from VA gunshops for later sale in NY without the full cooperation of citizens of the great state of Virginia. Before pointing your finger up here you need to look in the mirror.

Requiring the seller to maintian records as they do tax records and have a background check run will assist thos in VA as well as those in NY. It will make getting guns for felons in VA harder. They will certainly still find a way but it will be more difficult. That means it will be more expensive and less will be able to afford it. It will also allow one to track the path of a gun recoverred at a crime within 7 years of its sale to be traced. It also in no way infringes on your right to actually own and carry a firearm.

 

[Eghad]

A firearm is an inanimate object. People use them to kill. You are not going to prohibit or firearms from criminals any more that we are able to stop illegal drugs or alcohol during the prohibition.

Criminals and crazy people dont care how many laws you have on the books.

From my readings it seems there is a juvenile trend with firearms and some of it is gang related. Cities that have had some success have stepped up presence in the areas that need it.

 

[Wildalaska]

Why should those of us in other states that avoid NYC and its related scum for a reason be made to suffer for their inability to deal with their own citizens and illegals?

And with the tenor of your post, I wonder about whether YOU should own a gun.

WildithinkyouiowetheboardandallofusgunownersherefromnyanapologyAlaska

 

[boofus]

I consider even the proposition in jest that you be allowed to shoot anyone fro a state you don't like to be highly offensive

Good. I find that being forced to jump through extra legal hoops and hassles, pay more money, and possibly have my property confiscated because of the actions of a bunch of animals in NY just as offensive.

Now maybe you know how the rest of us forced to live with the liberal policies emanating from new england and the west coast feel.

 

[boofus]

And with the tenor of your post, I wonder about whether YOU should own a gun.

Why? Because the truth hurts? NYC doesn't want to deal with their criminals so they conjure up a boogeyman and blame someone else. The fact still remains the crimes are being committed in their city. Something about that city and Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Camden, and Compton make them attractive to the criminal underclass and I guarantee you the surrounding states are not responsible for it.

Been to NYC once, didn't like it. Don't plan on going back. Wouldn't go back if it was an all expensive paid trip. Didn't commit any crimes so they should back off and handle their own problems without finger pointing at me.

 

[Redworm]

No one is pointing a finger at you but to think that your state is free of crime and free of responsibility when dealing with straw purchases is ridiculous.

 

[Wildalaska]

Ken: Think twice post once. OK



WildthisithreadneedstobecloseditsbecomeadisgraceAlaska

 

[Al Norris]

A far better idea is to pass laws in other states that makes it legal to shoot on sight people from NY, MA, CA, MD and all the other places that claim to have an influx of straw purchased guns.

And with that little number, this thread is done.

Edited to Add: Forget the PM... You Have Mail!