moveable stock

ammo.crafter

New member
I reside in the free state of Pennsylvania but occasionally compete in New Jersey.

A moveable rifle stock is not allowed. Mine can be adjusted for LOP; if I rivet the stock in place so that it cannot move, would that satisfy the non-moveable statute?
 

44 AMP

Staff
Probably, but the people to ask aren't the ones here at TFL. For VALID legal advice about NJ law, you need a professional in NJ licensed and familiar with the law in question.

You could ask the NJ govt (the part that enforces and interprets that law) but unless you get some official written response on their letterhead with the dept head's signature on it, it might not be valid in court.

seems common sense, if the law says the stock cannot move and the stock does not move, you should be legal...

HOWEVER......

Look at the Fed (ATF) requirements for "permanent attachment" of a flash suppressor. They have specific approved requirements in order to qualify as "permanent" and not all attachment methods meet the requirements.

NJ COULD have sometime similar in their stock law. I don't know. You need to find someone who does know. TO be as legally safe as possible, I'd recommend keeping that gun out of NJ until you get valid legal advice.

Good luck!
 

FrankenMauser

New member
You could ask the NJ govt (the part that enforces and interprets that law) but unless you get some official written response on their letterhead with the dept head's signature on it, it might not be valid in court.
Might work.
Probably won't.
The last two times I tried such for similar reasons (in a free state), I got very "special" and unexpectedly basic responses.
1. "Consult a dictionary." -- For clarification on definitions that deviated from dictionary and federal definitions, in stupid and nonsensical ways and were, in my opinion, invalid and unenforceable.
2. "Consult applicable code." --For clarification on a bit of code that cited the definition, that cited the code for definition. So there was no definition. :rolleyes:

Very helpful.


Find some local (NJ) forums. Poke around and see what you can come up with.
If you can't find the answer, join and ask.
Locals are always the best bet for "what is working right now", short of a lawyer for 'what is technically the best way to stay legal'.
 

Metal god

New member
My state is not free and requires fixed stocks . Because there are several states like this the firearms industry has made pins for adjustable stocks that make them fixed . If you have Magpul , DD and maybe BCM stocks the pins are readily available and easy to install.

cqNqi7.jpg


You would still need to check with your/the individual state but I believe these pins will be all you need rather then drilling holes and riveting your stock on . You then can simply remove it when you get back to your free state :)
 
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44 AMP

Staff
You would still need to check with your/the individual state but I believe these pins will be all you need rather then drilling holes and riveting your stock on . You then can simply remove it when you get back to your free state

It is important to check on the actual language in the laws. IF the law includes the word "permanent", then you must get a definition from the state about what is, and is not considered "permanent".

In some cases it means "cannot be changed without tools", in other cases it means 'Must be attached in an approved manner".

Again, I will refer to muzzle devices. Pinned in place is NOT considered permanent. Soldered in place is not considered permanent. Silver Soldered, is. Welded is. Pinned in place with the pin hole plugged and welded shut is permanent. Simply installing a pin to fix a stock in place, a pin you can remove "easily" MAY not meet the state requirements. You must check, or roll the dice, and if the dice crap out, you'll be in court....
 

Metal god

New member
I believe the pin is fine in most places . Its just as easy or almost as easy to simply install an A2 stock on the lower and Im sure that would be fine . Still should check but my “guess” is the pins are fine . If not id just throw on a Magpul fixed stock with corresponding buffer tube , spring and buffer . Can usually be had for under $100

I don’t know this company but this is what I’m talking about
https://dsgarms.com/rifle-accessories-mgmoeriflestockkit
 

ghbucky

New member
Gotta say, considering the risk involved if you get it wrong, the safest path is to stay out of NJ with any firearm that may find a hostile DA.
 
Metal god said:
I believe the pin is fine in most places .
With all due respect, what leads you to believe that a pin (which you have pointed out can be easily removed) is "fine in most places"?

44 AMP said:
It is important to check on the actual language in the laws. IF the law includes the word "permanent", then you must get a definition from the state about what is, and is not considered "permanent".

In some cases it means "cannot be changed without tools", in other cases it means 'Must be attached in an approved manner".
That's the point. Each state has its own idea (and definition) of what constitutes an "assault weapon," and each state has its own idea (and definition) of "permanent." I can't imagine any state that has its own, home-grown assault weapons ban allowing an easily removable pin to satisfy a requirement that rifle stocks must be fixed in length.

But we don't need to know about all the states. The question is about New Jersey. Rather than speculate, if someone has any specific information that pertains to New Jersey, please chime in. Good luck finding anything. From the NJ State Police web site:

The New Jersey State Police is not authorized to provide legal advice to private parties.

For what it's worth, here's a link to the law itself. Rotsa ruck deciphering it.
https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2013/title-2c/section-2c-39-1/
 

Metal god

New member
With all due respect, what leads you to believe that a pin (which you have pointed out can be easily removed) is "fine in most places"?

No problem , I thought I touched on that but I was some what vague I'll explain more . I believe the lego modularity of the AR makes it more likely gtg to use the pin and that is just my opinion and I've said a few times to double check .

If you can just switch stocks to a fixed A2 or other simple to change fixed stocks . It would seem reasonable to conclude you can turn your adjustable stock into a permanently fixed stock as well . How is it permanent ? You can't just press a button or turn a switch to modify . It requires parts to change out as well as the tools to do so , exactly the same type of thing it takes to change out the whole adjustable stock to a fixed stock . You are doing the same thing just in a different way .

The muzzle device example is an apples to ... well not apples type of thing . Reason being is that is a barrel length problem resulting in a NFA issue . They are required to be pinned and welded if the muzzle device makes up the last part of the barrels over all length of 16". You see this most or I do with the 14.5" AR barrels and a pinned and welded 1.5" A2 flash hider making it a compliant 16" barrel not subject to NFA ( short barreled ) rifle regulations . Although possible IMHO it's not likely the stock pins are under that same type of control/regulation .

But hey what do I know I'm just some dude on the internet with an opinion :);)
 
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Metal god said:
With all due respect, what leads you to believe that a pin (which you have pointed out can be easily removed) is "fine in most places"?
No problem , I thought I touched on that but I was some what vague I'll explain more . I believe the lego modularity of the AR makes it more likely gtg to use the pin and that is just my opinion and I've said a few times to double check .

If you can just switch stocks to a fixed A2 or other simple to change fixed stocks . It would seem reasonable to conclude you can turn your adjustable stock into a permanently fixed stock as well . How is it permanent ? You can't just press a button or turn a switch to modify . It requires parts to change out as well as the tools to do so , exactly the same type of thing it takes to change out the whole adjustable stock to a fixed stock . You are doing the same thing just in a different way .
The problem here is that we are on a public forum, and giving advice that could get someone convicted of a felony if they follow it should be carefully considered and even more carefully worded.

I don't think those stock pins would be A-okay in many of the states that have prohibitions against movable/telescoping stocks, but it depends completely on the language (and interpretation) of the state in question. Let's look at what just one of the makers of those pins has to say:

https://www.rangeroll.com/stocklok-info/

As far as I'm concerned (speaking from the perspective of a long-time technical writer and professional editor), the company is, as the Native Americans reported used to say about the white man, "speaking with forked tongue."

Stock-Lok is the ONLY product on the market that allows you to make full use of all the adjustment positions you previously enjoyed with your telescoping stock while still complying with the law.

While you are no longer able to make the traditional on-the-fly adjustments of the past, Stock-Lok does allow you to change from one "fixed stock" position to another "fixed stock" position with the use of an external tool (hex wrench) and full disassembly of the stock. The adjustment process takes approximately 30 seconds to complete. NOTE: Not exactly "permanent"]

For those in states that require the stock to be "permanently" fixed, Stock-Lok can easily meet this requirement by using epoxy to permanently affix the Stock-Lok within the desired adjustment hole of the buffer tube during installation, or by filling the hollow top portion of the socket head screw after installation, which will eliminate the option of removal/adjustment with the hex wrench.
First they say the pin complies with the law while still allowing you to change the position of the stock in 30 seconds, using nothing but a hex key wrench.

But then they say if the state's language requires the stock to be "permanently" fixed, you have to epoxy the pin in place after installation. So then it would not be a simple matter to just remove the pain upon leaving New Jersey and returning to a free state.

What that's really saying is that the pin alone is not a permanent solution, and is probably not compliant unless epoxied in place.

I have an FFL friend who is dealing with the same "permanent" issue with regard to "high capacity ammunition feeding devices" (a.k.a. magazines). He's in a state that has a 10-round magazine capacity limit. The state's law specifically mentions that high-capacity magazines that have been "permanently" altered to hold not more than 10-rounds are allowed. Problem: neither the state police nor the AG's office has issued any guidance on what "permanently" means. The Magblocks company sells magazine spacers for all the magazines he needs to convert, and they also sell epoxy to glue the base pad to the base insert after installing the magblocks. Some gun shops in his state just do that and take the attitude that if the locking button can't be easily depressed, it's good to go. My friend is, like me, an older chap and rather risk averse, so he has reached out to me to try to find anything -- anywhere -- that says this method has been blessed by any state in writing.

We haven't found anything yet.
 

Metal god

New member
The problem here is that we are on a public forum, and giving advice that could get someone convicted of a felony if they follow it should be carefully considered and even more carefully worded.

I'm not even sure your point as it relates to my posts . I've gave no advice other then check the laws for your self and only my opinion . In fact I've said it multiple times so there should be ZERO confusion on this public forum . It seems to me you are making controversy where none exist .

The state's law specifically mentions that high-capacity magazines that have been "permanently" altered to hold not more than 10-rounds are allowed. Problem: neither the state police nor the AG's office has issued any guidance on what "permanently" means

It's because they can't . Nothing is permanent period and there in lies the problem . A pinned and welded muzzle device is not even close to being permanent . I could change that out in about a minute in my basement . With the right tools and parts anything can be adjusted . When a client asks me "can we" my answer is always yes . I then explain it's all about the cost effectiveness of what you want . How many parts on a gun are not considered adjustable and yet can be adjusted ? Would you consider a house attached to the foundation easily adjustable ? Yet for me they are because of my years building them . Houses are adjustable to the point of multiple configurations and even moving the whole thing to another planet literally . It's all about the materials and tools needed , scope and scale . That's why legislatures can't define permanent , because nothing is . Every time CA tried to define permanent , The industry has figured out a way to legally get around that definition . Better said , comply with the law . They don't define it because once you put words to it , those words can be attacked or challenged . CA has been banning AW since the early 90's and yet I could go buy a center fired semi auto rifle with detachable mag capable of excepting more then ten rounds right now 30 years later . Why , because CA was dumb enough to define what an AW is multiple times and every time the industry figures out a way .
 
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^^^ This is exactly why you should not state that a pin (which the manufacturer itself says can be removed in 30 seconds) "is fine in most places."
 

Metal god

New member
AB , I’ve not been saying you don’t have a point or that I don’t see it . I guess my over all point here is . In law ambiguity is not a good thing. Not having a definition for something could be considered the most ambiguous part of a law. It’s also my understanding that when to law and/or contract is ambiguous. It favors the party that did not draw it up or enact the statute.

Do I want to be the test case? Of course not I’d rather spend my money elsewhere. Plus California has been the test case for the last 30 years and when they do not define something they have lost in court and when they do define something, the industry finds a way around it. When you think of it from the anti-gun/pro gun control side. It’s got to be really frustrating for their side, especially now that we have Bruen . I’d say I feel sorry for them, but I simply don’t.
 

Metal god

New member
I do , there’s not many here in San Diego . Im on a hill , front of house single story back of house two stories. Added a studio apartment in 1/3 of the basement the rest is storage
 

44 AMP

Staff
Lucky you. I am east Coast. Love to have a basement.

Move. :D

Or as we used to say in the northeast, if you want a cellar, don't build in the swamp...:rolleyes:

And, if you don't want water in your basement, don't dig where my grandfather told you not to. :D

Metal God, I think you missed my point using the muzzle device example. And, you're doing the very easy thing of confusing reality with what satisfies the law.

Nothing made by man is permanent. Everything can be unmade and remade, all that differs is the amount of effort (and cost) needed to do it.

My point about the law is not what you can, or can't do physically, or WHY you need to do it, my point is that some laws specifically state what complies with the law,

When the law lists specific requirements for compliance, then anything not listed is assumed not to comply. Where there is no set requirement in the law only the vague one of "being permanent" then whether or not what you have complies with the law will be decided in court.

And, even if you win, you're out time, and considerable amounts of money.

SO, in this case knowing if the law in NJ has a specific requirement that complies with their idea of "permanent" is reasonably important. Guessing (aka using common sense) and guessing wrong could cost a LOT more than just money. Laws are rarely about common sense, or so it seems these days, but they are always about compliance, and when under their jurisdiction, knowing what is required is actually common sense.
 

Metal god

New member
SO, in this case knowing if the law in NJ has a specific requirement that complies with their idea of "permanent" is reasonably important.

Yup ! Thank goodness we've all been very clear about that in this thread . Now we wait to see if the OP even read the thread haha .
 
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