Mousegun cal. ideas

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Love&Hate12

New member
Both the .25 and .32 are ineffective with hollowpoints.

The .32 Naa round gets nothing but fragmentation and low penetration, it's a .380 necked to a .32. However if they put a bullet that is heavier around 90 grain it will have good enough sanctional density to get adequate penetration and would make the cartridge worth something.

Then for .32 sized guns, neck the .32 down to a .25 to ensure penetration and possibly expansion with a 60 grain bullet that has decent enough sanctional density in the winchester "expanding point" round or Powr'Ball type set up.

What do you think?
 
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Freetacos

New member
Untill wildcatters invent a super mousegun caliber I think it would be best to stick with the heaviest fmj rounds in common pocket gun calibers under the .380 acp power range. if you choose to carry a pocket auto.
 
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Love&Hate12

New member
I carry a 9mm but it would be nice to have an effective pocket pistol with less recoil than .38+p in the small lightweight snubs.
 
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Dave R

New member
Just passing along someone else's opinion that I read somewhere on the Internet.

The problem with mouseguns is best addressed with tactics, not bullet type. (Which doesn't mean you don't want to choose the best bullet for the job, its just that the best bullet doesn't make up for the wrong tactics.)

I believe it was Tamara who said that appropriate mousegun tactics are "empty, run, reload."

Sounds about right to me. Don't count on a 1-shot stop. Shoot to slidelock, as fast as possible, then run away and hope the threat is "slowed", if not stopped. Then reload in case the threat is still active.

Just something I read somewhere on the Internet.

Regarding 'best bullet for the job', I think .32 and .25 are best fed ball. Just my humble opinion.
 
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Love&Hate12

New member
Of course that is the tactic with mouseguns, I was merely giving an idea to make that tactic possibly a little more effective. There is no way to make anything in handguns an assured one stop shot.

If I had like I said the .32 naa with the 90 grainer I would do the same technique that you listed, but it would certainly be more potent than both the .380(with hollowpoints) and the .32 acp because of the sanctional density increase and you would get a .45 expansion possibly with decent ballistics.

The same with the ".25 super" idea over the regular .32 and .25/.22.
 
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skeeter1

New member
I've got an old High Standard derringer in .22 Magnum. Even if I missed someone (likely, it's not very accurate) the noise and muzzle flash out of that little 3" barrel would likely make a BG pee their pants and run away.

Given my druthers, I'd rather (and probably would) use something larger than the mousegun, but it's impressive to shoot. My shooting buddies like it when we go to the range. The guys at the range with their 9mms snicker at it until we pull the trigger. Huge fireball!
 
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Rimrod

New member
There is a .25NAA also as I recall which is a .32 necked down to .25.

You are suggesting to neck them down and use a bullet just as heavy as the original? In order to do that the bullets would have to be extra long and would make the OAL of the cartridge longer too. Also the whole idea is to use a lighter bullet to get higher velocity for more energy. If you intend to use a bullet just as heavy as the parent cartridge you might as well use the parent cartridge as it is.
 
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odessastraight

New member
What do I think?
My idea of an effective cartridge for ccw involves a wide, flat nosed bullet starting at about 250 grains in weight and with enough velocity to knock a hole "thru and thru" a BG's center mass. CCW of anything less is a drastic concession to comfort, which has a very good probability of making ya famous. I wouldn't take a .25 nor .32 (no matter what bullet weight) to a cat fight, much less carry one to save my life.
 
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Love&Hate12

New member
Rimrod - The point would to be increasing sanctional density for penetration but still decent enough velocity for expansion, making it more effective in an expanding round than the original cartridge not necked down.

A 90 grain .380 has a sanctional density of .102 and a 90 grain .32 has the sanctional density of .142, resulting in better penetration with expanding rounds.
 
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Dave R

New member
Probably a better expansion with ball rounds...

But if the HP expands to the same diameter as the ball round in the bigger cartridge, you lose the sectional density advantage, because then you have a wider (expanded) bullet, with less weight. Weight=momentum.
 
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Love&Hate12

New member
Well the winchester expanding point .25 penetrates about 5 - 6 inches and expands to .39, which is more than the .32 while crushing tissue rather than making a clean passage.

What I am saying is if the weight can be increased and get the same .39 expansion with say 10 inches of penetration in ballistic gelation, then you have a better round than the .32 ball and hollowpoint(which doesn't expand much and when it does penetrates shallow).
 
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Socrates

Moderator
7.62 X 25 in a snubby or pocket gun???

The 7.62 x 25 mm TT is a bottle-necked pistol cartridge widely used in former Soviet and Soviet satellite states. Actual caliber of bullet is 7.85 mm (.309 in)Ammunition

The Vz-52 fires a particularly hot loading of the 7.62 x 25 mm TT cartridge developed in Czechoslovakia, designated M48. It is often referred to simply as "The Czech Load". This is an 85 grain (5.5 g) FMJ bullet fired at 1,640 ft/s (500 m/s), 18% faster than the stated velocity of the common Russian load. The Czech load gives both unusually flat trajectory and relatively high penetrative power for a handgun. However, while certainly deadly, the small-caliber, full metal jacket bullet may overpenetrate and transfer only a fraction of its considerable energy to the target. This may also represent a hazard to bystanders, both those beyond the intended target and on the far side of intervening walls and doors.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62_x_25_mm_TT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vz_52_(pistol)


How about a cut down version of this gun?
Cz52_from_en_wiki.jpg



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Arizona Fusilier

New member
I am still experimenting with my "mousegun" loads, and haven't given up on something more promising then FMJ. Regardless, I practice rapid-fire headshots exclusively with my .32 and .22.
 
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Rimrod

New member
LoveandHate12,

A .380 and .32 of both the same weight will give a higher sectional density to the smaller diameter bullet. Then, as long as they can be driven at the same velocity, they would have the same kinetic energy values, (kinetic energy is used to expand the bullet) and momentum (for depth of penetration). Then the only difference would be that the .32 would have to expand more to catch up to the .380.

A .32 caliber bullet of the same weight of a .380 would have to be longer. So if you neck a .380 case down to .32 and stick a longer bullet into it, to keep the same OAL, you will have seat it deeper which will probably reduce the maximum velocity.

Keep in mind sectional density is of no value in handguns. In rifles a high sectional density is desired to make a flatter shooting round for long distance. Defensive handguns are short range weapons where trajectory to the target isn't an issue. The fact of the matter is a low sectional density would be better than a high one once the bullet hits the target. In flight you want low resistance, in tissue you want high resistance.

Bottlenecked pistol cartridges have been around for a long time, they just aren't that great. You drive a smaller, lighter bullet at a higher velocity to make it expand more but end up with less penetration. Or you can shoot a FMJ with deeper penetration with a smaller diameter wound. Bottlenecked pistol cartridges in handguns are just a gimmick. They look good on paper but the saying "there is no such thing as a free lunch" still applies.
 
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Gazpacho

New member
The ideal mouse gun would be about the same size as the P32 but it should weigh as much as a NAA or Seecamp. Still 32acp, but FULL AUTO. New York reloads work best for mouseguns.
 
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Dave R

New member
Very small pistol, suitable only for shooting mice.

Just kidding. Its a small, concealable pistol. The definition is a little fluid, but generally means .32acp, .25acp and .22LR pistols that fit in a pocket. There are a few .380acp's that fit the category, too.

Good examples are the Jetfire .22, and Kel-Tec P-32.
 
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Zorro

New member
Sorry but you might as well use a .22 LR and PRACTICE a lot with it.

Only way it works is that you can put that small bullet exactly in the right place. Do it 6 times in one or two seconds is better.
 
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