Most affordable - collectable 1911?

[1969Colt1911]

I am think for what is most affordable collectable 1911 today. Yeah many variables but Colt is notable. And any WWI, WWII any manufacturer. Vietnam, Korea certainly included. But anything built pre 1991 I'm wanting opinions ok.

 

[polyphemus]

What's collectible is determined by the collectors market,it then sets the price
according to supply and demand.
You have Singers and US&S's to name two that are affordable to some and Remington Rands and Colts that are a bit more affordable.
Collectible and affordable don't generally go hand in hand so if you have a dollar figure in mind post it and maybe the fellows can suggest a match.

 

[Skans]

I have three recommendations for collectible affordable 1911's:

1. Colt Gold Cup NM in stainless with the "ultimate" bright (mirror) polish. Might be able to find a good one for under $2,000

2. (decided to hold back on this one, because I might bid on it)

3. Colt Officers models seem to steadily increase in value.

 

[WVsig]

Sistema Colts... they are basically vintage Colts built in Argentina. They have moved up in price but still they are much less than real Colts of the same time frame.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Sistema Colts... they are basically vintage Colts built in Argentina. They have moved up in price but still they are much less than real Colts of the same time frame.

I have to disagree.

The Sistemas are moderately collectable, but most you'll find for sale are in pretty awful condition, as the Argentineans didn't take care of them before dumping them on the American surplus market.

But ... most importantly, they aren't Colts. They ARE (or were) very fine 1911A1s, built on tooling that was sold to Argentina by Colt and under license from Colt, but they are NOT "Colts." They are Sistemas. I admire them, but IMHO they are no more affordable than many other collectable 1911s. The pistols from that last batch that Lipseys was selling a few years ago -- the ones that had effectively zero percent finish remaining -- are now selling for $500 and up, just because there aren't any more available. For $250 they were a good base for a project. For $500 -- I'll pass.

 

[WVsig]

I have to disagree.

The Sistemas are moderately collectable, but most you'll find for sale are in pretty awful condition, as the Argentineans didn't take care of them before dumping them on the American surplus market.

But ... most importantly, they aren't Colts. They ARE (or were) very fine 1911A1s, built on tooling that was sold to Argentina by Colt and under license from Colt, but they are NOT "Colts." They are Sistemas. I admire them, but IMHO they are no more affordable than many other collectable 1911s. The pistols from that last batch that Lipseys was selling a few years ago -- the ones that had effectively zero percent finish remaining -- are now selling for $500 and up, just because there aren't any more available. For $250 they were a good base for a project. For $500 -- I'll pass.

OP did not ask fro strictly Colts he asked for 1911 made before the 1991. So yes they are not "Colts" but they are in line with what the OP is asking for.

Show me another 1911A1 built the old school way in the same price range of $500 that will appreciate. Yes they were better deals when they were $100-$250 but they are still not bad if you take your time and pick out a decent gun.

What USGI 1911A1 are you going to find for the same price point?

 

[RickB]

WWI and WWII Colts are getting well out of the "affordable" class, especially if you are looking for something that you can enjoy as a shooter while the value is increasing.

Pre-1991, I think you can't go wrong with anything "Series 70", especially the Gold Cup. Nice ones, with the box and accessories can still be had in the $1500-$2000 range.

Among newer Colts, I'd look at the XS models that were made for only about a year, circa 1999. It was Colt's first attempt to make a complete line of full-feature pistols with beavertails, ambi thumb safeties, etc.
Prices are still pretty reasonable.

Colt made quite a few centennial commemoratives, some of them can be had at very reasonable prices, and you can shoot them without fear of breaking anything.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

OP did not ask fro strictly Colts he asked for 1911 made before the 1991. So yes they are not "Colts" but they are in line with what the OP is asking for.

I understand exactly what he asked. I just want to be certain that he (and other readers) aren't mislead into thinking that a Sistema is a Colt. Like you, many people refer to them as "Sistema Colts," but they are not Colts. Colt didn't build them, Colt didn't sell them. They were built in Argentina, By an Argentinean factory and by Argentinean workers, for use by the Argentinean military or police.

The confusion arises from the rollmark on the right side, where it says (as in the photo of your pistol) "SIST. COLT CAL. 11.25mm. MOD. 1927". That's not a reference to the maker, that's the identification of the caliber. It means it's chambered for the Automatic Colt Pistol ("Sistema Colt," or "Colt System") 11.25mm (.45 caliber).

Of course, properly they also aren't "Sistemas," they are FMAPs. But everyone calls them Sistemas (except those who call them Colts).

Show me another 1911A1 built the old school way in the same price range of $500 that will appreciate. Yes they were better deals when they were $100-$250 but they are still not bad if you take your time and pick out a decent gun.

I very much doubt that you'll find a Sistema with even 75% finish for $500 these days. $500 might buy you a beater of a truck gun with maybe 10% to 20% finish remaining -- or less.

Here's a decent one on Gunbroker, that doesn't have original sights. Shop wants $674 for it (no bidders).
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=555520056

Here's another nice one, appears all original, asking price $900.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=555829764

And another, same shop as above, aftermarket sights and grips, also asking $900.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=555839177

 

[BoogieMan]

How about moving away from the 1911 a bit. Maybe a 1903 colt. Beautiful blued all metal pistols that will only increase in value. Can be had in nice condition for $750 and up. The least expensive of the 1911s may be the colts. A 40's model can be had in original good (not great) condition in the $2-3000 range.

 

[Skans]

Here's a Colt "Mini-1911". IMHO, very collectible!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=555596080

If this thing sells for under $2K, someone will be getting a good investment.

 

[RickB]

I very much doubt that you'll find a Sistema with even 75% finish for $500 these days. $500 might buy you a beater of a truck gun with maybe 10% to 20% finish remaining -- or less.

I saw a Sistema at a gun show last weekend, in about the same condition as the one pictured above, tagged $1500.
I did double- and triple-takes, trying to figure out if there was an extra zero, or the gun had appeared in The Wild Bunch, or had belonged to the President of Argentina?
It looked like a well-used, 60yo pistol, and nothing more.

 

[WVsig]

I saw a Sistema at a gun show last weekend, in about the same condition as the one pictured above, tagged $1500.
I did double- and triple-takes, trying to figure out if there was an extra zero, or the gun had appeared in The Wild Bunch, or had belonged to the President of Argentina?
It looked like a well-used, 60yo pistol, and nothing more.

That is insane. I see them for the $500-$1000 range depending on the vintage and the condition. I would not pay more than $500-$600 in todays market.

I see that people disagree with my recommendation but I am not seeing too many other realistic "affordable" collectible 1911s.

 

[RickB]

I thought it was one of more-collectable 1927 "Hartford Colts" supplied to Argentina, but it was definitely a Sistema.

 

[WVsig]

I thought it was one of more-collectable 1927 "Hartford Colts" supplied to Argentina, but it was definitely a Sistema.

The Hartford Colts are definitely collectible but not "affordable".

I understand exactly what he asked. I just want to be certain that he (and other readers) aren't mislead into thinking that a Sistema is a Colt. Like you, many people refer to them as "Sistema Colts," but they are not Colts. Colt didn't build them, Colt didn't sell them. They were built in Argentina, By an Argentinean factory and by Argentinean workers, for use by the Argentinean military or police.

The confusion arises from the rollmark on the right side, where it says (as in the photo of your pistol) "SIST. COLT CAL. 11.25mm. MOD. 1927". That's not a reference to the maker, that's the identification of the caliber. It means it's chambered for the Automatic Colt Pistol ("Sistema Colt," or "Colt System") 11.25mm (.45 caliber).

You left out that the Sistemas were made in a plant where the Colt engineers supervised the set-up of the production equipment. IIRC the machinery was German. You also have also discounted the connection to the Hartford Colts which were imported into Argentina directly from Colt. They are not "sistema Colts" but they laid the foundation for the association and for Colts involvement in the Sistema Colts. You present it as if Colt had no part in their manufacture which IMHO would be false. I am just trying to make sure people are not "mislead" by your post.

So it is not just the rollmark which causes people to identify the Sistemas with Colt.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

You left out that the Sistemas were made in a plant where the Colt engineers supervised the set-up of the production equipment. IIRC the machinery was German. You also have also discounted the connection to the Hartford Colts which were imported into Argentina directly from Colt. They are not "sistema Colts" but they laid the foundation for the association and for Colts involvement in the Sistema Colts. You present it as if Colt had no part in their manufacture which IMHO would be false. I am just trying to make sure people are not "mislead" by your post.

I didn't leave anything out. See post #5.

The Hartford Contract pistols are related to the Sistemas only in that both were issued to Argentinean military and police. The Hartford Colts were Colts, manufactured in Hartford by American workers and sold to the government of Argentina.

After that contract, Argentina wanted more guns but they wanted them to be built in Argentina, by Argentinean workers. So they purchased a license and tooling from Colt, and set up a factory in Argentina to build M1911A1 clones. I don't know to what extent Colt engineers assisted in getting the factory up and running, but it's certain that Colt was not actively involved in the manufacture of the Sistema pistols for the more than 20 years of production.

This is not unlike the U.S. adopting the M9 Beretta with the stipulation that Beretta establish a plant in the U.S. and make the M9 pistols in the U.S. The difference is that the Beretta plant in the U.S. is a Beretta plant, it is not a government or quasi-government operation.

 

[tirod]

Collectible doesn't imply the gun is a great example of the genre or even a decent functional projectile launcher. Divorce the hype over Singers - of which only a handful were accepted - and you have the story of a maker who basically failed to product a spec gun acceptable to the minimum standards because they weren't capable of it. The reality is that Singer made unacceptable junk.

But those half dozen examples that squeaked thru to actual use were rare and interesting because of it. Just like original Cobra roadsters they have provenance and nobody is ever going to make any more. So the bidders vying against each other created a bubble which is yet to deflate, but, as every other gun collected in history has shown, it will. They won't bring the continued increase in appreciation because those who are willing to spend extra for provenance will devalue it over other guns.

Why do they spend the extra money? Many will claim it's to own a piece of history, yada yada. The unspoken common denominator is they are buying social rank - "I have one and you don't." Hence the sales of things like Ferraries and Rolexes, despite their actual functional value in service rendered. Most of what they do for the extra cost is anoint the owner with more social rank.

So here's the question - what gun is the best to impress those who know us and get more respect out of them? Can't answer. Some of us don't work that way. We buy what fits our ergonomic situation and works with our concepts of self defense. Attempting to predict the outcome of buying some interesting guns provenance and how it shapes our public image is entirely up to others.

Seeing as how a significant portion of the market is now served by importers it's going to influence the future value of 1911's. Add the effect of the WWII and baby boomers aging and the current high values on guns they appreciate with change gradually over the next 20 years. What is considered a potential collectible now may very well be considered a shooter then, and treated as such. It's very much a social group think issue and like stocks you can't predict how the market will go.

 

[polyphemus]

Divorce the hype over Singers - of which only a handful were accepted - and you have the story of a maker who basically failed to product a spec gun acceptable to the minimum standards because they weren't capable of it. The reality is that Singer made unacceptable junk.

And other than your reality,could you offer some evidence to that assessment?

 

[RickB]

The Singer pistols were accepted by Uncle Sam, which means they were in spec.
Read-up on the problems encountered by Springfield Armory, Remington-UMC, Ithaca, et al., in setting up for production; Singer did a fine job.

 

[Big Shrek]

Well, if you want 1911-pattern (ha, see what I did there?)
try a Star P/PD/P-whatever series...(.45acp)
Star B series (9mm) under $300 http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/starpistols-2.aspx
or a Ballester-Molina (SARCO $350)
all under $500

Or, if you want full 1911-functionality/interchange-ability without the price...
SARCO has a deal on Para-Ord LDA Frames...
with optional Para Slide/barrel combos...for right at $300. Beat that.
http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/para-ordnance-lda-pistol-package.aspx

Heck, a smart guy could order a few and outfit their whole family!!

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Or, if you want full 1911-functionality/interchange-ability without the price...
SARCO has a deal on Para-Ord LDA Frames...
with optional Para Slide/barrel combos...for right at $300. Beat that.
http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/para-ordna...l-package.aspx

But a Para LDA is not functionally a 1911. In fact, there are those who argue that it's not a 1911 at all. And Sarco is selling the frames, slides and barrels, but very few of the internal parts are standard 1911, so where are you going to get all the parts to make a working firearm? I've looked through Sarco's web site, and I don't think they have everything you need.