Moscow, Idaho mulls possible gun ban

[Martyn4802]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com:80/local/6420AP_ID_Moscow_Shooting.html

Moscow ID mulls possible gun ban on city property
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

MOSCOW, Idaho -- Four people died and three were wounded last May as a shooting rampage unfolded at the Latah County Courthouse here and now the mayor wants to know whether Moscow can ban guns on city property.

Mayor Nancy Chaney has asked for a legal opinion from the state attorney general's office on whether the city has the authority to ban both concealed and exposed weapons in such public areas.

The request, made in mid-July, comes after Jason Hamilton, late on May 19, killed his wife at their home before driving to the courthouse and firing some 200 gunshots into a sheriff's dispatch center. There he killed one law enforcement officer and wounded two others, as well as wounding a good Samaritan who armed himself and ran to help.

Hamilton then went to the nearby First Presbyterian Church, fatally shooting a caretaker. Hamilton fired as many as 80 rounds inside the church before taking his own life.

"Most of the time our town is very tranquil," City Councilman Bill Lambert told The Associated Press on Wednesday. "I've lived here 30 years and this year by far has been our most violent since I've been here. I think there is probably some nervousness about that, of course."

Chaney said the shooting at the courthouse made her concerned about how vulnerable people might be at public meetings. She said she was also concerned about armed citizens who might be inclined to "swoop in to protect people" in situations that police should deal with.

"We don't want to tread on anyone's Second Amendment rights," Chaney told the Lewiston Tribune. "We want to find out what is within our legal prerogative."

Currently, anyone attending a City Council meeting can openly bring a rifle, shotgun or handgun, said Gary Riedner, city supervisor.

"Unless there's authority to restrict it, under state law you can carry an exposed gun," Riedner said.

Lambert said the discussion about banning guns is early, and has mostly focused on City Hall.

"I don't have a problem with guns being banned from city buildings, with the exception of law enforcement," said Lambert. "But citizens, I don't see a reason for them to pack a weapon down to City Hall."

Chaney said that once the city receives a legal opinion from the state, the City Council might consider a resolution or ordinance banning guns on city property.

 

[JWT]

Too bad an incident has to create what could be considered a knee jerk reaction. Banning guns from municipal buildings is not uncommon. In AZ certain city and/or county buildings ban handguns and if they do they provide lockers for storage the guns while conducting business in the buildings.

At least it doesn't appear the authorities want a total ban, but any ban is a step in the wrong direction. After all, guns were banned on the Virginia Tech campus and it did absolutely nothing to prevent the masacure there.

 

[2rugers]

Lambert says he sees no reason anyone other than law enforcement should carry a gun at city hall.
Well what about the possibility of there being other jason hamiltons?

Cheney said the shooting made her concerned about how vulnerable people may be at public meetings.
Wouldn't this be all the more reason to have citizens armed rather than unarmed?

How many shots would hamilton have gotten off if more people like the good samaritan mentioned had been armed and in the area on that day?

The good samaritan may have interrupted a final coup de grace to the officers who were only wounded.

Sometimes the assbackward way people think leaves me feeling.....tired and dissappointed.

 

[chris in va]

As usual, government feels police officers are there to protect people.

Until I can have a PO as my own personal body guard, forget it.

 

[Manedwolf]

I guess the city is trying to live up to its namesake.

 

[MD_Willington]

I posted similar over at THR...

I also pointed out the outright lie that in one of Chaney's statements, she stated that to their knowledge nobody has packed in the city parks.. uh I won't name names, but I know one overprotective dad that legally brings a little extra something when he takes his children to said parks just in case...


I'd also like to point out that I sent an email to the Latah County sheriff regarding CC in church, the Sheriff's office responded to my question was that I need to recheck my morals regarding CC in church in Moscow... hmm now where did Hamilton end up that night, oh yeah... in a Church. :barf:

 

[MD_Willington]

Well I sent this to a bunch of papers, lets see if I get anything back..

PS

I stole some of your guys quotes and used them too.

This morning I read an article in a local paper titled “Moscow Mayors Memo Versus Armed Citizen”, and have a few talking points on the article. I don't mean to ramble & I am not ashamed to admit I am not the most eloquent speaker.

I believe, along with many others, that we, or any human for that matter, have a fundamental right to self-preservation & self-defense. Since we are higher than the common animal and we do have the ability to make and use tools, it would make sense that the best tool for such an endeavor would be a personal firearm.

I do own firearms, I am not a stereotypical "gun nut" and I deplore such labels, labeling each other is a sign of ignorance. I am a licensed concealed carrier, and I do legally carry my sidearm where I am allowed to do so. I am just your average law abiding family guy living on the Palouse with my wife and young children.

This may be my own interpretation of what is going on, but it seems the Mayor of Moscow wants to “paint” law abiding firearms owners with “a very broad brush”, and lawful firearms owners will understand what I mean by that statement.

The Mayors statement about “wondering if someone who has an opposing viewpoint is armed” seems to be grasping at heartstrings as a tool to spread fear among those who do not understand the relevance of the situation or to the general public who are overly emotional in their reactions.

Such statements only serve to elicit a quick and sometimes even irrational response, the over zealous but uninformed may decide to "jump on to the band wagon" regardless of the consequences.

Personally, I could not fathom such a barbaric act of using my legally carried personal sidearm to menace someone with an opposing viewpoint, doing so would be quite childish, irresponsible, immoral and illegal.

The mayor appears to be applying “projectionism”, whereby she projects her fear of an inanimate object onto those who may have similar fears of an inanimate object.

The Mayor said the shooting at the courthouse made her concerned about how vulnerable people and city employees were. Wouldn't this be all the more reason to allow residents and city employees the legal right to be armed rather than unarmed?

City residents and employees for that matter do have the right to legally carry their own sidearm for self-defense and the right to use it under certain situations.

We can also face the fact that the Mayor also has the privilege of having an entire Police force to defend her, because lets face the truth, the Mayor or any other city official's call will have precedence over any average citizens will, the Mayor even has an armed entourage at council meetings when the Chief of Police or the Sheriff or one of the employees of said law enforcement agencies attends her conferences.

Shouldn't the average resident or city employee be able to have the same privilege/right or is self-defense to be the explicit privilege of the “Elite Ruling Class”. That may sound harsh but it does somehow ring true if the City of Moscow is allowed to go ahead with passing of such a hollow law.

I remember reading the following regarding a hollow law; "At Virginia Tech the law did not protect the innocent, as to a criminal, a law is only writing on a piece of paper."

With that said, I therefore must oppose her view and inquiry as to the implementation of a law that would ban firearms on “City Property”; after all, criminals rarely live within the boundaries of such laws in the first place.

I can only hope that if the City of Moscow does indeed find a way to implement such hollow laws, that they will put the issue to a public ballot whereby the residents, all of the residents, of the City of Moscow can cast their vote, after all, that way all parties concerned will have a fair say about the outcome, as opposed to a forced outcome from the City of Moscow’s very own “Star Chamber”.

 

[Yellowfin]

Being that this is in Moscow can this be used as proof that gun ban advocates are indeed communists?

 

[Al Norris]

Being that this is in Moscow, Idaho, can this be used as proof that gun ban advocates are indeed ignorant of our State laws?

 

[2rugers]

Well written MD.

I can only hope they are still capable of deductive logic and understand that the policy of disarming the law abiding can only lead to more Hamiltons running amuck.

 

[MD_Willington]

They're not all anti gun in Moscow, quite a few of our friends live there and they are firearms owners as well, we actually went shooting with about 20 people from there at one time. We even have a friend in the Moscow PD and we were trying to figure out a place we could all get together and target shoot.

I will be empathetic for the residents of Moscow if so few people, namely the council members, can get away with passing laws that affect everyone in Moscow. Quite sad, I though I was getting away from stuff like this when I came to the US from Canada, I didn't figure there would be a "Ruling Class" and a "Commoner Class", but it becoming quite apparent that there are these classes.

 

[Al Norris]

MD, you are aware that a resident alien can run for city council? (here I go "assuming" your status...)

 

[MD_Willington]

Oh no no no.. uh uh, not going to do it, wouldn't be prudent...



Yes I am a legal resident alien, green card since June 2005, legal resident since March 2000.

 

[2rugers]

I lived in the Coeur d'alene area for awhile MD and they had a place just east of town on 90 called fernan that you could shoot away into a mountain side, lotsa fun.
I know that is a drive but I would venture a guess that out Orofino way and north you could find a like place.

 

[Al Norris]

Oh no no no.. uh uh, not going to do it, wouldn't be prudent...

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is exactly why we will never get our rights back.

I'm sorry if it seems that I'm picking on you, MD. But this entire gripe session is worthless when we don't get involved.

Consider: The Idaho Supreme Court has ruled in 3 separate cases just how far the Legislature may go in "regulating" firearms and carry. It has no power whatsoever to completely restrict the carry of firearms by its citizens who carry for lawful purposes. Full Stop.

Yet, because of a certain statute, many Chief Magistrates of District Courts have concluded that they can ban open carry within the courthouse (concealed carry is regulable under law and such a law has been enacted).

And just yet, because of another statute, the State Parks and Recreation Dept. has designed an administrative rule that bans the open or concealed carry of firearms within any State Park or other area administered by them.

Sorry, if the State Legislature has no power to ban the carry of firearms, then any such Statute that would seem to grant such authority, has no status. The State may not grant a power it does not have.

You fight this abuse by challenging the law directly, or, by being elected to your City, County or State offices where you can prevent or correct these abuses from happening.

Becoming an elected official is far easier than walking into the Courthouse and being arrested and fighting the ruling in court. I know, from personal experience... If you won't consider the former, I doubt you will consider the latter.

 

[MD_Willington]

That post was also made in jest, but I understand what you mean Antipitas...

I am not a resident of Moscow or Idaho.. I'm 10 minutes on the WA side of the state line.

I don't think people in Moscow would take too kindly to me coming on in and running over there.

 

[Al Norris]

Now That answer I can agree with! I retract my diatribe.

 

[MD_Willington]

No problem.. now who do we know that lives in Moscow

 

[MD_Willington]

Sheriff's all for concealed weapons permits (Moscow, Idaho)

Check this out!

Courtesy Lewiston Morning Tribune

Wayne Rausch says Moscow - not to mention UI campus - would be safer places if more qualified people were packing

MOSCOW - With 540 persons carrying concealed weapons permits in Latah County, Sheriff Wayne Rausch said Tuesday he wouldn't mind if more applied and qualified to carry guns.

That includes on the campus of the University of Idaho.

"In my opinion, if there were more students with CPWs, the world would be safer," Rausch said. He pointed out virtually anyone can carry a weapon in plain sight.

People who seek concealed weapons permits, the sheriff said, are rarely a problem. They're screened and generally pack firearms within limits of the law. "Most of those are good citizens," said Rausch, who is the only law enforcement officer in the county with the authority to issue concealed weapons permits.

"Just because we (law enforcement officers) are charged with protecting the public, doesn't mean the public shouldn't be able to protect itself," Rausch said.

His words come on the heels of Moscow Mayor Nancy Chaney seeking a legal opinion about whether city officials can restrict firearms on city property. If Chaney and other officials opt to outlaw guns in public buildings and parks, Rausch said, they better be ready to spend the dollars for enforcement. Otherwise, like at the Latah County Courthouse, the prohibition would be toothless.

"We don't have any system in the courthouse to back up the ban on guns," Rausch said. He said prohibition signs outside the doors work for law abiding citizens, but not for those intent on circumventing the law.

"The bad guy is going to go right through the door."

If county and city officials are serious about banning guns on public property, the sheriff said, they must follow the lead of the federal government. Otherwise any new ordinances would be little more than feel-good measures. All persons entering the federal building here in Moscow, for example, must walk through a metal detector and are subject to search, Rausch said. Not so at the courthouse, city hall or any other public building in the county.

A Moscow man, for example, spoke at Monday's city council meeting against a ban on weapons. David Klingenberg, who has a conceal weapons permit and said he was carrying a handgun at the meeting, said an armed citizenry is a safer citizenry.

"When seconds count, the cops are only minutes away," Klingenberg, 36, told Chaney and members of the city council. "I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy."

Another Moscow resident, 33-year-old Sean Wilson, recently questioned whether UI has authority to prohibit weapons on campus. "It's really sort of rattled the cages a little," Rep. Tom Trail, R-Moscow, said about Wilson's challenge of the university ban.

Despite the tragedy in May when gunman Jason Hamilton shot up the courthouse and killed four people, including himself, Rausch said he and his deputies don't think more laws will result in less crime.

Sgt. Brannon Jordon, who was shot by Hamilton and is still recovering, agreed with the sheriff.

"When I make contact with a person, I like to be the only one with a gun," Jordon said. But only once, he said, has he had problems with a person carrying a concealed weapons permit. That person, Jordon said, vowed he wouldn't surrender the gun if ordered. Nothing more came of the incident and in all other dealings with permit holders, Jordon said, people complied with his requests to simply not introduce the gun into the moment at hand.

"We don't try to take anyone's gun from them," Rausch said of contacts with people who have valid concealed weapons permits.

The sheriff said there was no big increase in applications for permits after the Hamilton incident, nor has there been a surge in the wake of other shooting deaths in the county this summer.

People seeking a concealed weapons permit must go to the sheriff's office and fill out a one-page application that includes a series of questions that focus mostly on criminal background. According to the application, persons prohibited from receiving a permit include fugitives from justice, unlawful drug users, people who've been adjudicated as having a mental defect or who have been committed to a mental institution, people convicted of a crime calling for a prison sentence of one year or more, people indicted for a crime punishable by one or more years in prison, dishonorably discharged military veterans, people who renounce their U.S. citizenship, aliens illegally in the country, people subject to various restraining orders, and people convicted of domestic violence.

A fee of $56 is charged and the application may take up to 90 days to be processed.

For him, Rausch said, the application in some respects is confusing and ambiguous and leaves him with a lot of discretion he doesn't necessarily want. If lawmakers are serious about a need to impose more gun restrictions, Rausch said, they need to first clean up current laws and then enforce them with vigorous prosecution.

"As one of the founding fathers said, 'The government that doesn't trust me with guns, I don't trust that government,'" Rausch said.

Is this our guy, someone should put the "wanna be Mayor" bug in his ear!

 

[JeanC]

Quote:
No problem.. now who do we know that lives in Moscow

---

I'm probably closest to Moscow, about 1/4 mile out side of city limits. Won't move back into town, unless they annex our little neighborhood. Wouldn't run for city office anyways, hubby keeps talking about running me for county commish so we can have our road plowed on a regular basis