More on the Steyr Scout Part II
- Thread starter Schmit
- Start date
To resolve the light hits problem may I suggest the ff 
:
First find reliable spring-tension setting then tighten still(or replace with higher tension spring) to next harder adjustment. Now not for long this would toughen tendons and maybe build muscles needed to cycle that bolt, then go lighten adjustment back again to original reliable setting---voila! Lighter bolt lift, faster follow up shots!
:First find reliable spring-tension setting then tighten still(or replace with higher tension spring) to next harder adjustment. Now not for long this would toughen tendons and maybe build muscles needed to cycle that bolt, then go lighten adjustment back again to original reliable setting---voila! Lighter bolt lift, faster follow up shots!
First I own a Steyr Scout will be two years come December 2000. Only nits I have is that I bought the package and got those Bleeping xtra thick crosshairs [3 or 4 MOA thick]on a gun that shoots around .75 MOA.
Question if your going to spend ~$2500.00 on a ~7 lbs rifle designed for general hunting why would you want it to shoot ammo designed for ~9lbs military rifles?
Miltary ammo isn't designed for hunting [FMJ even legal for anything but varnmints?] it is designed to function in semi and full autos without slam firing.
Cooper aside a Scout isn't very good for combat vs trained and equipped opponents. Against goblins it would suffice with a good pistol IMHO.
Anyway I think if $'s are a limiting concern buy a '98 Mauser and a couple hundred round of ammo. Or get a 30-30 or 45-70 lever gun put a reciever site on it and get couple cases of ammo.
If you want a light weight gun that shoots BETTER than MOA then fork over the money for the gun, ammo, optics, & practice.
Question if your going to spend ~$2500.00 on a ~7 lbs rifle designed for general hunting why would you want it to shoot ammo designed for ~9lbs military rifles?
Miltary ammo isn't designed for hunting [FMJ even legal for anything but varnmints?] it is designed to function in semi and full autos without slam firing.
Cooper aside a Scout isn't very good for combat vs trained and equipped opponents. Against goblins it would suffice with a good pistol IMHO.
Anyway I think if $'s are a limiting concern buy a '98 Mauser and a couple hundred round of ammo. Or get a 30-30 or 45-70 lever gun put a reciever site on it and get couple cases of ammo.
If you want a light weight gun that shoots BETTER than MOA then fork over the money for the gun, ammo, optics, & practice.
I have fired several hundred rounds through my Steyr Scout Rifle without a problem. Granted I don't use cheap, crappy, corrosive, no telling how long it been stored and under what conditions ammo. If it is a flawed gun because it won't shoot crappy ammo then I can live with it. I am willing to spend the money for good quality ammo and this is not a concern for me. If this bothers you the answer is simple .......don't buy one.
Folks, there have been SOME reports of FTF. Not a LOT. Not from MOST SS owners. Just SOME. You have any idea how many reports there are on the Remington safety breaking? And what's the single most wildly widely popular rifle for tac teams around the world? The Remington 700 bull-barrel .308. Probably 95%+ of all designated "snipers" in P.D.'s around the US use that above rifle in TENSE situations.
Clean your SS once in a while. Strip your bolt once in a while. You won't have any problems...
L.P.
Clean your SS once in a while. Strip your bolt once in a while. You won't have any problems...
L.P.
Rosco Benson
New member
I and my associates shoot a lot of milsurp .308 in practice (assuming it works in the weapon in question). I just got back from a trip to a friend's farm today, we worked with precision rifles at 100, 200, and 250 yards doing balloon-drills (this is where small balloons, 5" diameter or so, of various colors are placed downrange, attached to target frames so they can move in the breeze. The spotter calls out a particular balloon and the shooter acquires the target and pops the specified balloon, avoiding any others, as quickly as possible). I used milsurp Portugese FNM 83-23 in my 700 VS (it'll keep them in about an inch at 100 yards, off the bipod). It was plenty good for what we were doing...even out to 250 yards.
This particular milsurp ammo gave no hard extraction with the stainless/synthetic Remington Model 7, mentioned in Part 1 of this topic.
So, yes, the ability to use inexpensive milsurp ammo allows more practice for fewer $$$.
Rosco
[This message has been edited by Rosco Benson (edited April 30, 2000).]
This particular milsurp ammo gave no hard extraction with the stainless/synthetic Remington Model 7, mentioned in Part 1 of this topic.
So, yes, the ability to use inexpensive milsurp ammo allows more practice for fewer $$$.
Rosco
[This message has been edited by Rosco Benson (edited April 30, 2000).]
Glamdring-
Question if your going to spend ~$2500.00 on a ~7 lbs rifle designed for general hunting why would you want it to shoot ammo designed for ~9lbs military rifles?
Because the ammo does a fine job in that ~7 lbs rifle. What, really, is wrong? It's handy, lightweight, sub-MOA, easy to use, not much kick, can take down almost any game in one shot, and has plenty of fine-point nuances that make it so worthwhile. The ammo is widely available in many forms, can pack a punch equivalent to .30-06 in a smaller package, and has a flatter trajectory. Can you really recommend something better?
Do you complain about the Barrett .50 BMG "sniper" rifles using ammo intended for machine guns?
6forsure-
it's flawed from what it is supposed/advertised to be.
Can you provide a more substantial criticism?
Long Path-
Folks, there have been SOME reports of FTF. Not a LOT.
I had the problem with some military surplus ammo, and fixed it a few minutes by changing the firing pin tension (no apparent change in bolt lift, despite what others whine about). Since then, I've only seen the problem with the absolute most crappiest of ammo (corroded mid-'70's Chilean military surplus).
Question if your going to spend ~$2500.00 on a ~7 lbs rifle designed for general hunting why would you want it to shoot ammo designed for ~9lbs military rifles?
Because the ammo does a fine job in that ~7 lbs rifle. What, really, is wrong? It's handy, lightweight, sub-MOA, easy to use, not much kick, can take down almost any game in one shot, and has plenty of fine-point nuances that make it so worthwhile. The ammo is widely available in many forms, can pack a punch equivalent to .30-06 in a smaller package, and has a flatter trajectory. Can you really recommend something better?
Do you complain about the Barrett .50 BMG "sniper" rifles using ammo intended for machine guns?
6forsure-
it's flawed from what it is supposed/advertised to be.
Can you provide a more substantial criticism?
Long Path-
Folks, there have been SOME reports of FTF. Not a LOT.
I had the problem with some military surplus ammo, and fixed it a few minutes by changing the firing pin tension (no apparent change in bolt lift, despite what others whine about). Since then, I've only seen the problem with the absolute most crappiest of ammo (corroded mid-'70's Chilean military surplus).
OK, here is some "More Substantial" criticism.
From myself in the previous thread:
"Rich Lucibella just sent me the bolt of his Scout for modifications that will hopefully allow it to fire ALL ammo, and be at least a little smoother on cocking once the spring is set up to the required tension.
Lots of polishing of internals, and a redo of the bolt handle itself to give greater length and leverage with a truncated cone type knob instead of the poorly finished, grotesque butter knife handle it sports now.
The problems stem from Steyr's pathetic fit and finish of the primarily cast parts of the bolt components, as well as the too short bolt handle. It is now clear that Steyr spent NO extra money on fit and finish of these critical components. Quite cheesy, really.
Shame on them.
The cast parts are mostly left in the "as cast" condition, and a lot of these areas are bearing surfaces. The porous, rough finish is a terrible bearing surface, and will require a lot of careful polishing to render them smooth enough to be considered adequate. The porous finish of the stainless steel parts is also a great way to encourage galling and corrosion. Not what you want in your ultimate "utility rifle" for reliability's sake anyway...
All of the little pits on the parts are already full of red oxides, and this ain't good.
I have recommended hard chroming the parts after they are polished to render the surfaces hard and abrasion resistant, while increasing their corrosion resistance.
If you doubt me, take apart your Scout bolt, and look at the components with a loupe. You will see what I mean.
It would appear that the en masse solution is for the bolt components to be electro polished and hardchromed, and the bolt handles to be modified or replaced with a longer knob as I am doing for Rich.
Don't bet on Steyr picking up the ball on this, they won't even admit that there is a problem with their little Vundergunn.
Perhaps I will start a Scout refurbishing side business...
My next post.....
"Little" technical difficulties like failure to fire and galling of critical parts are not little problems. They are BIG problems that should have been addressed BEFORE the product went to market, and failing that, they should be addressed by the manufacturuer once they are found."
And this from Rich Lucibella:
"The bottom line is this: The Steyr Scout employs a 60 degree bolt throw, as opposed to the 90 degree throw of most other bolt rifles. This requires that proportionately more force be applied to the bolt in order to compress a given spring. Thus Steyr uses a 15 lb vs 30 lb firing pin spring (rough numbers). However, in order to reliably fire MilSurp ammo, additional kinetic energy must be transferred to the primer.
There are only two ways to reasonably retrofit the action to allow proper bolt functioning with a stronger spring:
- Increase leverage
- Decrease friction
The leverage increase was suggested by the Steyr Tactical Bolt which John Schaefer has generously supplied. Increased leverage allows us to use a stronger spring without increasing the force necessary to compress it (instead it increases the distance over which the spring is compressed). The Tac bolt is about 1/2" longer...a fact which is not immediately apparent because it sweeps back more. Steyr, incidentally, refuses to sell the Tac bolt handle separately, which, I believe is the epitome of arrogance in Customer Service.
Looking at the LURCR rifle, which Kevin built for me earlier this year, it's obvious that we can get even more "useful length" out of a given bolt handle by using a truncated cone, rather than a ball at the end. And so it was decided to extend the bolt handle by about 1/2"-3/4", sweep it back about 10 degrees and install a truncated cone terminator.
As for the friction: Kevin has about said it all. The fit and finish leave a great deal to be desired. Not only are the surfaces of the cam sleeve, cam lugs and gas shroud woefully unpolished, but the threaded firing pin, itself, actually rubs aggainst the internals of the spring when firing...this robs it of much needed kinetic energy."
And this from John Schaeffer:
"Rich Lucibella and I have been actively investigating the "light hit" problem, and Kevin is right in his observations.
I maintain the Steyr Scout web site at: http://207.181.246.106/johns/project.htm
and have been actively involved with Steyr and GSI with this rifle since day 1. A lot of attention to internal details would have helped prevent the nagging glitches that are sometimes seen. However, there is more to check than just rough finishing. Check out the "Tips & Tricks" link on the Steyr Scout site and go to the "Light Hits" link on that page for more info.
In talking with the factory the designer is aware of some of the finishing issues but states that additional hand finishing would drive the cost up which is unacceptable. The factory does have an "improved bolt" with an extended handle fitted with a US type round knob. Unfortunately, it is only available on the "Tactical" Scout and GSI has refused to consider offering it as an aftermarket upgrade for owners of the conventional Scouts.
Cheers,
John S."
More from Rich:
"Well-
We tried the Scout with two bolts and two different milsurp ammos (Venezuela and England). Kevin's work on the bolt absolutely reduced the incidence of light hits. The bolt handle also made for a much smoother throw.
Unfortunately, the Scout's ability to allow ease of bolt use with this ammo remains nonexistent. The bolt hangs up at the top of the arc and requires a palm slap to break and open....not good. What we thought might be a tight chamber turns out to be a chamber at the outside edge of SAMMI specs. Fr. Frog indicates that this is by design.
The result, I suspect, is that the milspec cases are somehow flowing into the excesses, resulting in additional force required for extraction. More when I return from across the lake.
Rich"
Further, we have now found that Rich's Scout bolt will close on a no go gauge, which is a bad thing. This indicates that the chamber was cut too deep. Steyr indicates that they did this intentionally. I wonder why they would intentionally make an oversized chamber?
Need more "substantial criticism"?
Stay tuned. The fat lady ain't sung yet on this one.
[This message has been edited by MAD DOG (edited May 03, 2000).]
From myself in the previous thread:
"Rich Lucibella just sent me the bolt of his Scout for modifications that will hopefully allow it to fire ALL ammo, and be at least a little smoother on cocking once the spring is set up to the required tension.
Lots of polishing of internals, and a redo of the bolt handle itself to give greater length and leverage with a truncated cone type knob instead of the poorly finished, grotesque butter knife handle it sports now.
The problems stem from Steyr's pathetic fit and finish of the primarily cast parts of the bolt components, as well as the too short bolt handle. It is now clear that Steyr spent NO extra money on fit and finish of these critical components. Quite cheesy, really.
Shame on them.
The cast parts are mostly left in the "as cast" condition, and a lot of these areas are bearing surfaces. The porous, rough finish is a terrible bearing surface, and will require a lot of careful polishing to render them smooth enough to be considered adequate. The porous finish of the stainless steel parts is also a great way to encourage galling and corrosion. Not what you want in your ultimate "utility rifle" for reliability's sake anyway...
All of the little pits on the parts are already full of red oxides, and this ain't good.
I have recommended hard chroming the parts after they are polished to render the surfaces hard and abrasion resistant, while increasing their corrosion resistance.
If you doubt me, take apart your Scout bolt, and look at the components with a loupe. You will see what I mean.
It would appear that the en masse solution is for the bolt components to be electro polished and hardchromed, and the bolt handles to be modified or replaced with a longer knob as I am doing for Rich.
Don't bet on Steyr picking up the ball on this, they won't even admit that there is a problem with their little Vundergunn.
Perhaps I will start a Scout refurbishing side business...
My next post.....
"Little" technical difficulties like failure to fire and galling of critical parts are not little problems. They are BIG problems that should have been addressed BEFORE the product went to market, and failing that, they should be addressed by the manufacturuer once they are found."
And this from Rich Lucibella:
"The bottom line is this: The Steyr Scout employs a 60 degree bolt throw, as opposed to the 90 degree throw of most other bolt rifles. This requires that proportionately more force be applied to the bolt in order to compress a given spring. Thus Steyr uses a 15 lb vs 30 lb firing pin spring (rough numbers). However, in order to reliably fire MilSurp ammo, additional kinetic energy must be transferred to the primer.
There are only two ways to reasonably retrofit the action to allow proper bolt functioning with a stronger spring:
- Increase leverage
- Decrease friction
The leverage increase was suggested by the Steyr Tactical Bolt which John Schaefer has generously supplied. Increased leverage allows us to use a stronger spring without increasing the force necessary to compress it (instead it increases the distance over which the spring is compressed). The Tac bolt is about 1/2" longer...a fact which is not immediately apparent because it sweeps back more. Steyr, incidentally, refuses to sell the Tac bolt handle separately, which, I believe is the epitome of arrogance in Customer Service.
Looking at the LURCR rifle, which Kevin built for me earlier this year, it's obvious that we can get even more "useful length" out of a given bolt handle by using a truncated cone, rather than a ball at the end. And so it was decided to extend the bolt handle by about 1/2"-3/4", sweep it back about 10 degrees and install a truncated cone terminator.
As for the friction: Kevin has about said it all. The fit and finish leave a great deal to be desired. Not only are the surfaces of the cam sleeve, cam lugs and gas shroud woefully unpolished, but the threaded firing pin, itself, actually rubs aggainst the internals of the spring when firing...this robs it of much needed kinetic energy."
And this from John Schaeffer:
"Rich Lucibella and I have been actively investigating the "light hit" problem, and Kevin is right in his observations.
I maintain the Steyr Scout web site at: http://207.181.246.106/johns/project.htm
and have been actively involved with Steyr and GSI with this rifle since day 1. A lot of attention to internal details would have helped prevent the nagging glitches that are sometimes seen. However, there is more to check than just rough finishing. Check out the "Tips & Tricks" link on the Steyr Scout site and go to the "Light Hits" link on that page for more info.
In talking with the factory the designer is aware of some of the finishing issues but states that additional hand finishing would drive the cost up which is unacceptable. The factory does have an "improved bolt" with an extended handle fitted with a US type round knob. Unfortunately, it is only available on the "Tactical" Scout and GSI has refused to consider offering it as an aftermarket upgrade for owners of the conventional Scouts.
Cheers,
John S."
More from Rich:
"Well-
We tried the Scout with two bolts and two different milsurp ammos (Venezuela and England). Kevin's work on the bolt absolutely reduced the incidence of light hits. The bolt handle also made for a much smoother throw.
Unfortunately, the Scout's ability to allow ease of bolt use with this ammo remains nonexistent. The bolt hangs up at the top of the arc and requires a palm slap to break and open....not good. What we thought might be a tight chamber turns out to be a chamber at the outside edge of SAMMI specs. Fr. Frog indicates that this is by design.
The result, I suspect, is that the milspec cases are somehow flowing into the excesses, resulting in additional force required for extraction. More when I return from across the lake.
Rich"
Further, we have now found that Rich's Scout bolt will close on a no go gauge, which is a bad thing. This indicates that the chamber was cut too deep. Steyr indicates that they did this intentionally. I wonder why they would intentionally make an oversized chamber?
Need more "substantial criticism"?
Stay tuned. The fat lady ain't sung yet on this one.
[This message has been edited by MAD DOG (edited May 03, 2000).]
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Another case of beauty being in the eye of the beholder, I guess. I'm now on my second Steyr Scout. I hunted pigs in Florida and Texas with the first. I hunted everything in Africa with the second. Obviously, I really want to love this weapon.
Call me an elitist if you will; but we all know the original purpose of the Scout Concept...it's was to design the One gun; the piece you reach for when you bug out, taking only one. Well, if it won't fire what I can most easily find, then I guess I'd take the LURCR (Winchester Model 70 platform)...after all, match ammunition is kinda tough to find when you really need it.
Call me a lightweight if you will. But we all know why the Scout Concept required a short action: for ease of operation and speed. If the operation or speed is hampered by having to take a rubber mallet to the bolt in order to chamber round two, I'd say some adjustment is needed.
I've now fired four Scouts. The 3 in .308 all exhibited light hits in my hands, one with Lake City Match. The 4th was in .376 and the action was like ground glass owing to the fact that Steyr equips them with the impossibly heavy, non-adjustable "High Energy" spring.
I still think the Steyr Scout is the best thing since the 1911. However, like it's modern day pistol counterpart, it may require a bit of tweaking out of the box. Unlike it's modern day pistol counterpart, Steyr hasn't yet been had a century to get it perfect. Hopefully they will do so long before the next Centennial.
Rich
Call me an elitist if you will; but we all know the original purpose of the Scout Concept...it's was to design the One gun; the piece you reach for when you bug out, taking only one. Well, if it won't fire what I can most easily find, then I guess I'd take the LURCR (Winchester Model 70 platform)...after all, match ammunition is kinda tough to find when you really need it.
Call me a lightweight if you will. But we all know why the Scout Concept required a short action: for ease of operation and speed. If the operation or speed is hampered by having to take a rubber mallet to the bolt in order to chamber round two, I'd say some adjustment is needed.
I've now fired four Scouts. The 3 in .308 all exhibited light hits in my hands, one with Lake City Match. The 4th was in .376 and the action was like ground glass owing to the fact that Steyr equips them with the impossibly heavy, non-adjustable "High Energy" spring.
I still think the Steyr Scout is the best thing since the 1911. However, like it's modern day pistol counterpart, it may require a bit of tweaking out of the box. Unlike it's modern day pistol counterpart, Steyr hasn't yet been had a century to get it perfect. Hopefully they will do so long before the next Centennial.
Rich
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
No Hot Rod is worth it's mag wheels unless you have to get under the hood a few times.
This whole issue puzzles me. Perhaps some people are expecting something totally different out of a Steyr Scout rifle than I am. I plan to change the Scope and I will be happy with mine. Though I would like the "improved" bolt handle the standard one does work fine.
I have not been able to get light primer strikes with the ammo I have run thru my Scout so far. Even in MN winter time.
Maybe I got lucky and have a "better" scout than some other owners?
The concept of a scout rifle is supposed to be of a GP easily fed rifle. I really don't think the Steyr Scout as executed by Steyr was intended to do that. Rather, I think they wanted to sell a high priced gun to followers of Cooper that typically spend $1,200.00 to $1,600.00 (or more) on 1911's. I have to admit that was part of the appeal of it for me. Though I don't own a 1911. Heck I don't even have a 45 at the moment Though both of those will change over time
Gee they make 5.56 Steyr scouts now! And 243. Those don't fit the concept at all, but they sell.
Not to mention the 376 Steyr.
I have not been able to get light primer strikes with the ammo I have run thru my Scout so far. Even in MN winter time.
Maybe I got lucky and have a "better" scout than some other owners?
The concept of a scout rifle is supposed to be of a GP easily fed rifle. I really don't think the Steyr Scout as executed by Steyr was intended to do that. Rather, I think they wanted to sell a high priced gun to followers of Cooper that typically spend $1,200.00 to $1,600.00 (or more) on 1911's. I have to admit that was part of the appeal of it for me. Though I don't own a 1911. Heck I don't even have a 45 at the moment
Though both of those will change over time Gee they make 5.56 Steyr scouts now! And 243. Those don't fit the concept at all, but they sell.
Not to mention the 376 Steyr.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ctdonath:
Glamdring-
Question if your going to spend ~$2500.00 on a ~7 lbs rifle designed for general hunting why would you want it to shoot ammo designed for ~9lbs military rifles?
Because the ammo does a fine job in that ~7 lbs rifle. What, really, is wrong? It's handy, lightweight, sub-MOA, easy to use, not much kick, can take down almost any game in one shot, and has plenty of fine-point nuances that make it so worthwhile. The ammo is widely available in many forms, can pack a punch equivalent to .30-06 in a smaller package, and has a flatter trajectory. Can you really recommend something better?
Do you complain about the Barrett .50 BMG "sniper" rifles using ammo intended for machine guns?
[/quote]
from my previous: Miltary ammo isn't designed for hunting [FMJ even legal for anything but varnmints?] it is designed to function in semi and full autos without slam firing.
I was not picking on the "caliber" rather on the "military bullet". The only thing I would pick military ammo for by CHOICE would be shooting Goblins and it would be my LAST choice even for that use. I would much prefer to use a Nosler Ballistic tip or V-Max for goblin hunting.
And yes I would not use military loads in a 50 BMG Sniper rifle. Except perhaps to get brass, if the brass is any good to start with? It will be at least 5 years before I can get a 50 so I haven't studied it much. I do know that military ammo for any caliber (military match ammo aside) isn't designed to shoot accurately by most standards.
[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited May 18, 2000).]
Glamdring-
Question if your going to spend ~$2500.00 on a ~7 lbs rifle designed for general hunting why would you want it to shoot ammo designed for ~9lbs military rifles?
Because the ammo does a fine job in that ~7 lbs rifle. What, really, is wrong? It's handy, lightweight, sub-MOA, easy to use, not much kick, can take down almost any game in one shot, and has plenty of fine-point nuances that make it so worthwhile. The ammo is widely available in many forms, can pack a punch equivalent to .30-06 in a smaller package, and has a flatter trajectory. Can you really recommend something better?
Do you complain about the Barrett .50 BMG "sniper" rifles using ammo intended for machine guns?
[/quote]
from my previous: Miltary ammo isn't designed for hunting [FMJ even legal for anything but varnmints?] it is designed to function in semi and full autos without slam firing.
I was not picking on the "caliber" rather on the "military bullet". The only thing I would pick military ammo for by CHOICE would be shooting Goblins and it would be my LAST choice even for that use. I would much prefer to use a Nosler Ballistic tip or V-Max for goblin hunting.
And yes I would not use military loads in a 50 BMG Sniper rifle. Except perhaps to get brass, if the brass is any good to start with? It will be at least 5 years before I can get a 50 so I haven't studied it much. I do know that military ammo for any caliber (military match ammo aside) isn't designed to shoot accurately by most standards.
[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited May 18, 2000).]