More BS government restrictions "in the name of security"

[SpyGuy]

Yesterday, my wife and I drove into San Francisco to drop off my tax return at the IRS office (I've had a return go missing in the past, so now I get the IRS to date stamp a copy as a receipt).

When we walked into the lobby of the federal building, we were met by the expected "security" dorks with their metal detectors and x-ray machines. What I didn't expect was to have a short, overweight, bug-eyed, little punk with a uniform and an attitude tell me (quite rudely) that my wife couldn't enter the building because she wasn't carrying a photo ID.

That's right folks, we the "little people" are being denied access to OUR government if we don't provide a photo ID!

How this helps keep anything secure is beyond logic. It's not like they were even recording the names of those entering the building, they just wanted to see that you had an ID on your person. I guess that way if someone were to set off a suicide bomb, they could identify the remains.

Enough "homeland security" fantasy, let's get back to reality...

The Murray Building blast in Oklahoma City was (ostensibly) achieved by a blast from a truck parked in the street. Check for photo IDs wouldn't have prevented that.

The Arab terrorists who hijacked airplanes and smashed them into the WTC, the Pentagon, and the ground, all had photo IDs and had purchased their (round trip) flight tickets legitimately.

Illegal aliens, terrorists, common criminals, and even underage college barflies, all have ready access to all manners of fake photo IDs, so what does possession of a photo ID really prove?

Carrying a photo ID does not preclude someone from slipping plastic explosives or Molotov cocktails past metal detectors and blowing up people and property.

Carrying a photo ID does not preclude someone from sneaking many types of other individual or mass attack weapons into the building.

Carrying a photo ID does not preclude someone from carrying anthrax, sarin gas, or other deadly chemical or biological agents into the building.

And the last little bit of reality (which I'm sure never occurred to the small-minded "I'm just following the rules" security guard): if my wife was a bomb-wielding terrorist or a weapon-toting violent criminal, how does it help anyone--particularly the guards--to have her wait in the lobby (standing behind the backs of the guards) while I conducted my business inside? If she were going to kill people, guess who would have gotten it first?

 

[John/az2]

People don't think anymore, they just react. 99% of the time it is in the wrong direction.

 

[Ed Brunner]

SpyGuy

Do you realize how silly it is to expect the IRS to be locical? Of all of the Alphabet Agencies in the world, you pick IRS to make sense.

 

[SpyGuy]

Do you realize how silly it is to expect the IRS to be locical?

It wasn't just access to the IRS, it was access to the entire San Francisco federal building, housing many different agencies.

And as much as I am opposed to the principles of the IRS (and would like to see the agency abolished), in most cases, they are just the messengers. The real crooks (and illogical buffoons) are the elected critters who write the tax laws and the spending programs that make such taxes necessary.

 

[John/az2]

Nah. The real crooks are the mass American people who elect their favorite traitor to office in the hope of receiving some sort of benifit from them...

 

[MP Freeman]

Nah. The real crooks are the mass American people who elect their favorite traitor to office in the hope of receiving some sort of benifit from them...

I second the above stated or posted or typed or whatever... I second it again.

MPFreeman

 

[UnknownSailor]

Nope, to me the real criminals are the faceless civil servants who are high enough up in the chain to enforce policy, but yet low enough to not be exposed to the political process (i.e. appointed). People like BATF district chiefs, who most certainly could make a positive difference, but choose not to. The equivelant positions in the IRS. The list could go on.

When these guys screw up, people have a nasty habit of dying, but they are never held accountable. When something like the Waco assault happens, those in charge should be publicly keel-hauled, but they never are.

 

[John/az2]

UnknownSailor,

Civil servants -> Elected traitors -> The people.

It all comes back to rest on the people's shoulders.

Baaaaaaa!! (my best sheep imitation)

 

[40ozflatfoot]

I think a good case could be made to support the arguement that the government isn't ours. The politicians behave as if it isn't, and there's certainly enough evidence...

That aside, security guards of all kinds are among the lowest paid wage earners. Entry level burger-flipprs are paid more. Is it any wonder, then, that robot-like idiocy is so common among their ranks? This is truly an example of the adage, "...you get what you pay for."

 

[Shin-Tao]

Some small points:

1) These people you see securing the Federal Buildings are not just "security gaurds" like you would see in a mall or someplace else

2) Under title 18 USC they have plenty of authority to ruin your whole year.

3) They are usually payed quite well, although this varies slightly from state to state.

4) Those guys have no choice but to obey the odrers mandated by the Federal Protective Service. There is a disturbing amount of cameras in those buildings and they are monitored. If FPS sees one of them wave someone in without verifying ID, they are in serious trouble. If these guys could write their own rules, change their own rules, or make exceptions at random, there would be a lot of problems.

5) No one likes these guys. The Feds in the building don't like them, the VIPs don't like them, YOU don't like them. They take a lot of crap every day.

6) What is so hard about displaying an ID in the first place? It's a secure Federal Building durring a time of war. What do you expect? We were going to end all public access and have them on total lock-down, employees and functionaries only. We decided to keep public access to allow tax assistance and simular office visits.

7) No you can't get a molotov or bomb in their easilly. Or cell-phone gun, or plastic gun, or glass knife.

8) They weren't supposed to allow your wife to even wait in the lobby for you. Regs dictate they actually should have had her wait outside. They apparently did you a favor.

9) Our agency recieves hundreds of communications a week about this stuff. Half demand that the security elemnts back off a little and try to function as customer service. Half want the element to tighten up and add frisking to the entry proceedure, even if the subject dosen't make the detector go off. This isn't going to happen.

10) We will be refining our SOP and regulations soon.

As an evil Fed, I thank you for your cooperation with our entry proceedures. I would also like to remind you that tax help is availiable at many differant locations from many differant organizations, often times free. Most tax forms are also available at the public library, so you don't have to go through the arduous task of showing an ID in a Federal Building to get one.

 

[SpyGuy]

Shin-Tao, your small points are way off their mark...

1) These people you see securing the Federal Buildings are not just "security gaurds" like you would see in a mall or someplace else

Sure could've fooled me. As a former military officer, I know the difference between professional security personnel and run-of-the-mill "rent-a-cops." Suffice to say that these guys were not professionals.

2) Under title 18 USC they have plenty of authority to ruin your whole year.

They may have the authority, but do the have the right? Why do some people think that just because some idiot politicians, bureaucrats, or lawyers scribbles some words on a piece of paper, that the "authority" behind those words is legitimate. The truth is that many, if not most, laws in this country are anything but legitimate since they either violate the constitution, or were created by people who did not have the constitutional authority to create them.

3) They are usually payed quite well, although this varies slightly from state to state.

Then the government is not getting its money's worth. Btw, I can think of a number of other people who are paid quite well by the government. That doesn't mean they are either good or professional. Most of those in congress immediately jumps to mind...

4) Those guys have no choice but to obey the odrers mandated by the Federal Protective Service. ... If FPS sees one of them wave someone in without verifying ID

And here's where you really missed the point. Exactly how does just looking at a photo ID make a building more secure? (Even assuming that the ID is legitimate.)

5) They take a lot of crap every day.

A lot of people in "public interaction" jobs take a lot of crap every day. If they can't remain professional and courteous, then they don't belong in the position. And yes, I hold government employees to a higher standard than I do private enterprise. If I don't like the way I'm treated at a business, I take my money elsewhere. We don't have that option when dealing with the government.

6) What is so hard about displaying an ID in the first place?

No, in the first place, tell me why it's so important to demand an ID? How does it protect anyone? The only thing looking at a photo ID proves is that I was able to get a photo ID. Boy that sure makes me feel a whole lot safer. We already know that illegal aliens, criminals, and terrorists can get photo IDs (both fake and legitimate).

But to answer your question, I don't recall anything in our Constitution requiring citizens to have photo IDs.

We decided to keep public access to allow tax assistance and simular office visits.

Gee, that was mighty big of you. I guess in your tax payer-funded ivory towers, you've forgotten who you work for and what it is you do. Imagine if some large corporation decided to suddenly lock out their board of directors. Well, that's who we--the citizens--are for the government: we're your board of directors. You work for us. We pay your salary. The only reason that damn building exists is to serve us, the people. And you think you have a right to lock us out during business hours?

7) No you can't get a molotov or bomb in their easilly. Or cell-phone gun, or plastic gun, or glass knife.

Wanna bet? Firstly, anyone can smuggle any non-metal item through a metal detector. That includes explosives, flammible liquids, and plastic weapons. Just how do you think the security guards would know--mental telepathy? Secondly, both my wife and I set off the metal detector. Do you know what your highly-trained and highly-paid security guards did? They asked to see our ankles. After we pulled up our pants legs, we were waved on. They didn't ask us to check our pockets and try again. They didn't go over us with a wand (although they had them there). They didn't frisk us. How did they know that I wasn't carrying a weapon? How did they know there wasn't a bomb in my boot? Because I had color coordinated socks?

8) They weren't supposed to allow your wife to even wait in the lobby for you. Regs dictate they actually should have had her wait outside. They apparently did you a favor.

If FPS sees one of them wave someone in without verifying ID, they are in serious trouble. If these guys could write their own rules, change their own rules, or make exceptions at random, there would be a lot of problems.

So much for their professionalism and training. (Hmmm... If they could do me a favor and break that rule, why couldn't they do me a favor and let my wife in without her ID?)

I would also like to remind you that tax help is availiable at many differant locations from many differant organizations, often times free. Most tax forms are also available at the public library, so you don't have to go through the arduous task of showing an ID in a Federal Building to get one.

Again, you've missed the point. As much as I'm opposed to the IRS, they exist as part of the government I PAY FOR and I have to deal with them (their rules, not mine). So if I need the consult with them about my taxes, then they damn well better have their doors open for me. And in case you missed it in my original post, I was dropping off my return and getting a date stamped receipt--something that can be done nowhere else, except at an IRS office.

---

Look, I'm not disputing the need for security. There are criminal and terrorist elements at large in the US (of course, the Federal government is largely to blame for that, but that's another subject). But I have yet to hear any logical explanation from you (or anyone else) as to why the asinine "I must glance at your photo ID" rule has any significance. The fact is, we all know the real reason for this rule: it's knee-jerk window dressing so some bureaucrat can write up in his performance review that he "implemented strict security regulations to ensure the safety of the building and its occupants." It also helps ease the minds of the sheeple that "their government is hard working to protect them."

 

[Futo Inu]

A couple of times per week I enter the federal bankruptcy court building in OKC, about 1 block south of the bombing memorial, where the Murrah building used to be.

After 1995, but before 9-11, they required photo IDs to enter the building, ONLY if we were bombing Saddam or other heightened security times.

Since 9-11, they require a photo ID from every person, every time, just to get in the building. It's so ridiculous in light of the fact that all of the security guys know me and I know them, but they still (have to) make me show them my ID every single time! (they also now take my pocket knife always; before 9-11, sometimes they would, sometimes not). I also fail to see how this stops any kind of terrorism. Wonder if they would accept an ID from the go-cart fun park in town like we used to get when we were teenagers? It has a photo on it...

 

[Shin-Tao]

I am fully aware of the differance between granted authority and legitimate authority.

I'm not missing your key points, I'm dancing around them and making my own. In principal we are in agreement on many things, but I simply don't see why you and others have to get so angry about the little things and then stereotype the personal involved. In describing these people you guys sound like the anti's babling about gunowners.

And you certanly don't have to tell me anything about the IRS. No argument there.

What state was this in, please?

 

[SpyGuy]

but I simply don't see why you and others have to get so angry about the little things

Sorry if I came off gruff. But, frankly, I am angry about this for several reasons:

1. I drove forty miles (round trip) into San Francisco to pay a legitimate business visit to the IRS. In so doing, I had to take time off from work, deal with traffic, deal with gas prices now at $1.72/gal, deal with the $3.00 toll over the Golden Gate (which, btw, they now want to raise to $5.00), deal with parking, and deal with being accosted by the rampant homeless in that liberally corrupt city. Only to have my wife turned away at the door for an ill-conceived rule that serves no purpose and makes no sense.

2. I called the IRS several times prior to my visit. I listened to the various recorded messages, as well as spoke with live personnel about my visit. I was given the address, the hours of business, and other information. But at no time was there any mention of a photo ID requirement to enter the building.

3. What if I didn't have a photo ID available? For example, what if I had recently lost my driver's license and only had a temporary replacement? Then I would have been barred access to MY government. Fortunately, I did have a photo ID, but I'm still angry about this on principle. The government has no right to block the legitimate access of the people.

Let's look at this from another perspective. I'm sure you're heard of no-knock raids, where government agents crash into people's homes (without even announcing their presence, let alone showing photo IDs). I get very scared (and angry) when government agents usurp more "authority" and "rights" than the people whom they serve.

4. Did I mention that the rule was ill-conceived, that it serves no valid purpose, and that it simply makes no sense? I have little tolerance for blatant stupidity, particularly on the part of my government.

... and then stereotype the personal involved

Actually, I did no such thing. The security guard--who very rudely stopped my wife from entering--was, in fact: short, overweight, and bug-eyed (and his uniform was unkempt). I was just calling it as I saw it. Any similarity in my description to a common stereotype was purely coincidental.

What state was this in, please?

People's Republic of Kalifornia.

 

[Shin-Tao]

10-4.

There actually is a real reason for the ID check, but it's not what you think. It does look like proceedural window dressing, but I promise you it isn't.

No they should never EVER be rude. Cold and monotone maybe, but not rude. As for uniform being unsat, that too is a non-no. It looks like you found a bad example in a bad unit. That is unfortunate and I wish you hadn't had this experiance.
As for the IRS peons that didn't mention certan things they should have...We really have no contact with them policy wise and they are not in our chain of command in any way. We are a part of GSA, they are not.

SanFran Cali. Why does this not surprise me?

 

[Azrael256]

Wait a sec... What government agency provides a free photo ID? This goes along with that needing a photo ID to vote thing. Somebody needs to get together a whole bunch of underpriveliged people who cannot afford to obtain a photo ID and have them try to carry their tax returns into that building (even if they don't owe anything). Something smells here...

 

[Shin-Tao]

You do not have to file taxes by physically walking them into a secure Federal building. Mail them like almost everyone else does.

 

[SpyGuy]

There actually is a real reason for the ID check, but it's not what you think. It does look like proceedural window dressing, but I promise you it isn't.

Well, I'm sure we'd all be interested in hearing what the reason is.

Once again, the security personnel were not recording any information from the IDs, they were just seeing if we possessed one. Even if they recorded the information (and assuming that the information presented is even correct), that would not prevent a security breach, it would merely give evidence to the investigation after the fact.

If I were a terrorst or other goblin, how would that protect anyone in the building? Anyone can easily obtain a real or fake photo ID. The terrorists of 9-11 infamy all had legitimate photo IDs and other "official" documents.

They only "benefit" I can see would be that it would make it easier to identify bodies after some catastrophic event. And that is hardly a legitimate reason to bar people access to their government.

 

[westex]

Photo ID

Allow me to throw in this comment about photo IDs. They are totally worthless if all that is done is to visually scan them. Half the waiters/watresses/cooks in any TexMex resturant in my area have at least one set. Some have 2 or 3. You can pick up an excellent drivers liscense or about any other type of photo ID around here (and probably in any other city in the US) for a couple of hundred bucks in a couple of days. I had the opportunity to closely examine a few and they are as good as the originals to the naked eye. Just remember that anything created by human technology can be copied by human technology.

So as far as using them to ID anyone, you're living in a dream world if you think they accomplish anything other than to make a gullible public think something "is being done".

 

[Jetfire]

quote:
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There actually is a real reason for the ID check, but it's not what you think. It does look like proceedural window dressing, but I promise you it isn't.
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I would definitely be interested in learning about the reason for the ID check. Where I live, many of the office buildings in my area started checking IDs, installing metal detectors, etc. after 9-11. (Un?)fortunately, I've personally been waved through, on several occasions, while visiting others. These are not Federal buildings though.