mk318 vs m855a1
- Thread starter kcub
- Start date
Which is better?
The one your rifle likes more.
Both will kill stuff dead just fine, both have barrier blind characteristics, and both will function perfectly from ARs long and short. Anyone who starts bringing up terminal ballistics is going to have to push a rope uphill with the fact that 1) no matter the bullet design it's still a .224 caliber projectile and 2) the most important part of lethality is accuracy, followed by penetration, and in both cases the two cartridges do more than good enough in those categories.
Jimro
The one your rifle likes more.
Both will kill stuff dead just fine, both have barrier blind characteristics, and both will function perfectly from ARs long and short. Anyone who starts bringing up terminal ballistics is going to have to push a rope uphill with the fact that 1) no matter the bullet design it's still a .224 caliber projectile and 2) the most important part of lethality is accuracy, followed by penetration, and in both cases the two cartridges do more than good enough in those categories.
Jimro
Carne Frio
New member
Can't find either one here.
I've read that too, but once you start digging a little, it's one of those "everybody knows" things that everybody doesn't in fact know. There are a lot of assumptions in that statement, one of them is that every round fired will cause the same amount of barrel wear and that just isn't the case. Barrel temperature has a much bigger impact on barrel wear, so if you fire 100 rounds a day, it's very different doing a 100 round "mad minute" versus one round a minute for 100 minutes.
So yes the M855A1 has higher pressure than the older M855 load, but by how much? Is it significant? Is it outside SAAMI spec? Is it anything to worry about?
M855 is rated 2,916 fps from an M4 (3,113 fps from M16)
Mk318 Mod 0 is rated 2,925 fps from an M4
M855A1 is rated at 2,970 fps from an M4 (3,150 from an M16).
The M855A1 gains a whopping 43 (from M16) and 54 (from M4) fps over the older M855 load, and only 45 fps over Mk318.
The answer is that if we use the M855 as a baseline, both Mk318 and M855A1 have more velocity and you can expect a reduced barrel life because of that. At least in purely theoretical terms, you could have a lower pressure load that you shoot a LOT of with the barrel really hot and cause way more wear than shooting M855A1 judiciously and keeping the barrel temperature lower.
One of the other myths is that the M855A1's copper slug doesn't deform as easily as lead and therefore that will cause increased wear. But the Mk318 projectile also has a solid copper back end, so there is no gains in barrel wear from going with that bullet.
So yeah, which is better? The one that your rifle shoots better. Or maybe the one that you can get for cheaper in bulk. All bullets from a 5.56 platform are sufficiently lethal to get the job done. Even the yaw dependent M193 and M855loads work just fine (Mk318, M855A1, and Mk262 loads are not dependent on bullet yaw for terminal effects).
Doesn't matter what you shoot, you shoot it hot you'll have premature barrel wear. But AR barrels are pretty cheap and easy to replace.
Jimro
Carne Frio
New member
"Palmetto State has mk318, damn great accuracy it is."
They won't ship it to Alaska.
They won't ship it to Alaska.
43,54,45fps? Seriously?? I suppose its an interesting difference in tech specs, but that small amount of fps difference is irrelevant as a practical matter.
Individual rifles of equal barrel length can show that much, or more, variance.
The SAME rifle can show that much of a difference between a cold frosty morning and an 90degree afternoon.
Choosing the best ammo does not rely on velocity numbers alone.
And you are entirely right about the RATE of fire being a bigger factor in barrel wear than the exact load and pressure.
44 AMP,
Yes I'm serious, the whole internet going nuts about how the Army screwed up with such a dangerous overpressure, rifle eating load, might just have been blown a tad out of proportion.
Last time I shot M855 and M855A1 side by side I couldn't tell a difference in muzzle report or rifle recoil. This was using an issue M4 (not upgraded to M4A1 standards, that program started a year later). I know such an anecdote isn't real data, but it stands to reason that if there were going to be a problem with the new load, it would have shown up by now. After all, this was the load that some rifle companies said made the last Carbine Competition "unfair" because the load is tuned to the M4...
But, seriously, if Mk318 works in someone's rifle, stick with it. No point in arguing about which is "best" since they both work just fine, and "better" than the M855 they replaced.
Jimro
Yes I'm serious, the whole internet going nuts about how the Army screwed up with such a dangerous overpressure, rifle eating load, might just have been blown a tad out of proportion.
Last time I shot M855 and M855A1 side by side I couldn't tell a difference in muzzle report or rifle recoil. This was using an issue M4 (not upgraded to M4A1 standards, that program started a year later). I know such an anecdote isn't real data, but it stands to reason that if there were going to be a problem with the new load, it would have shown up by now. After all, this was the load that some rifle companies said made the last Carbine Competition "unfair" because the load is tuned to the M4...
But, seriously, if Mk318 works in someone's rifle, stick with it. No point in arguing about which is "best" since they both work just fine, and "better" than the M855 they replaced.
Jimro
Tucker 1371
New member
But it's got electrolytes, it's got what plants crave...
I'll take Mk318 because I can actually find it. Can't prefer ammo I can't buy.
On that note, does anyone know if someone makes the Mk318 bullet? I've heard it's similar to a Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, Barnes TSX, Remington Trophy Bonded Tip. I'd like to save up some brass and load my own Mk318s so as not to pay almost $1.00 per round for what is essentially milsurp ammo, albeit very nice milsurp ammo.
I'll take Mk318 because I can actually find it. Can't prefer ammo I can't buy.
On that note, does anyone know if someone makes the Mk318 bullet? I've heard it's similar to a Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, Barnes TSX, Remington Trophy Bonded Tip. I'd like to save up some brass and load my own Mk318s so as not to pay almost $1.00 per round for what is essentially milsurp ammo, albeit very nice milsurp ammo.
Model12Win
Moderator
The M855A1 is well know to be very hard on rifles and is just all around a bad load.
KIDDING!!! Jimro, don't kill me!!
I wish I could find Mk 262 easier as well. Seems like it would make a great coyote round.
KIDDING!!! Jimro, don't kill me!!
I wish I could find Mk 262 easier as well. Seems like it would make a great coyote round.
Black Hills Mk262 will run you around a buck a shot, if you can find it in stock.
It's easier to find generics, although I can't rightly recommend any of them.
Unnamed manufacturer: 419.00 per 500 http://www.tacticalammunition.com/Bulk-556X45MM-77GR-HP-OTM-NB-500-TA88-0177-TA88-0177.htm
Georgia Arms "Canned Heat" 77gr OTM load, 390.00 per 500: http://www.georgia-arms.com/canned-heat-223-remington-77gr-serria-boattail-hollow-point-match/
Natchez Mk262 "clone" for 450 per 500: https://www.natchezss.com/5-56mm-77gr-ssa-otm-mk-262-clone.html
I honestly can recommend handloading for an AR. Can't beat sending 75gr BTHP ammo down range for less than 30 cents a trigger pull.
Jimro
It's easier to find generics, although I can't rightly recommend any of them.
Unnamed manufacturer: 419.00 per 500 http://www.tacticalammunition.com/Bulk-556X45MM-77GR-HP-OTM-NB-500-TA88-0177-TA88-0177.htm
Georgia Arms "Canned Heat" 77gr OTM load, 390.00 per 500: http://www.georgia-arms.com/canned-heat-223-remington-77gr-serria-boattail-hollow-point-match/
Natchez Mk262 "clone" for 450 per 500: https://www.natchezss.com/5-56mm-77gr-ssa-otm-mk-262-clone.html
I honestly can recommend handloading for an AR. Can't beat sending 75gr BTHP ammo down range for less than 30 cents a trigger pull.
Jimro
Tucker 1371
New member
Jimro,
Have any idea if there is a civilian analogue to the Mk318 bullet? I'd love to try loading up some.
Have any idea if there is a civilian analogue to the Mk318 bullet? I'd love to try loading up some.
Magtech mk262 clone, I haven't tried it. I don't think I have a rifle that will stabilize it unless my Wyndham 16" Bushmaster does, anybody know?
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=CBC556C&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DMAGT
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=CBC556C&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DMAGT
Model12Win
Moderator
Wow, that's a nice price. Wonder how it groups?
Tucker1371,
The Mk318 bullet is based on the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, but essentially it's a solid rear shank with a lead portion up front.
What you should look for in terms of design philosophy is a soft front with "controlled expansion" in mind. The point of being "barrier blind" in military terms is that the nose can deform enough on impact that the energy that would have deflected the bullet is just used up in deforming the nose (Mk318 solution) or the nose breaks off and the shank continues on straight (M855A1 solution).
Bullets that meet the weight (62gr) and design include. Trophy Bonded Bear Claw 62gr, although it is a flat based bullet. It's kind of a no brainer, but it really is a good bullet.
Other bullets that meet the performance parameters even if not the specific construction or weight...
Nosler 60gr Partition. Has the lead up front and a solid middle section, should offer as good of "barrier blind" performance as the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw and Mk318 projectiles.
Nosler Bonded Performance 64gr. This has the lead up front, solid shank, but isn't really designed for long range (wider meplat, flat based) but should perform like Mk318 at 300 and under.
Barnes 62gr TSX and Barnes 62gr "Tax-X", don't have a lead front but do expand, better than FMJ or cup and core soft points or match bullets for barriers. Solid copper projectiles generally do very well against glass at angles approaching 90 degrees, and I've seen the testing in 30 cal where Bares X bullets made the shots that the SMKs simply blew apart when their was an intermediate barrier. In short, it's a good bullet for barrier blind performance, but how it exactly stacks up against Mk318 is just an educated guess on my part right now (no one I know has done the testing).
Hope this is helpful.
Jimro
The Mk318 bullet is based on the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, but essentially it's a solid rear shank with a lead portion up front.
What you should look for in terms of design philosophy is a soft front with "controlled expansion" in mind. The point of being "barrier blind" in military terms is that the nose can deform enough on impact that the energy that would have deflected the bullet is just used up in deforming the nose (Mk318 solution) or the nose breaks off and the shank continues on straight (M855A1 solution).
Bullets that meet the weight (62gr) and design include. Trophy Bonded Bear Claw 62gr, although it is a flat based bullet. It's kind of a no brainer, but it really is a good bullet.
Other bullets that meet the performance parameters even if not the specific construction or weight...
Nosler 60gr Partition. Has the lead up front and a solid middle section, should offer as good of "barrier blind" performance as the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw and Mk318 projectiles.
Nosler Bonded Performance 64gr. This has the lead up front, solid shank, but isn't really designed for long range (wider meplat, flat based) but should perform like Mk318 at 300 and under.
Barnes 62gr TSX and Barnes 62gr "Tax-X", don't have a lead front but do expand, better than FMJ or cup and core soft points or match bullets for barriers. Solid copper projectiles generally do very well against glass at angles approaching 90 degrees, and I've seen the testing in 30 cal where Bares X bullets made the shots that the SMKs simply blew apart when their was an intermediate barrier. In short, it's a good bullet for barrier blind performance, but how it exactly stacks up against Mk318 is just an educated guess on my part right now (no one I know has done the testing).
Hope this is helpful.
Jimro
Tucker 1371
New member
Thanks Jimro, I may try loading up a few batches of Trophy Bonded Bear Claws after I fix my press.